Pressure Testing, Installation questions,and Finding a professional

Robbie · December 2009

Hi- I just purchased a new boiler, and am preparing to install it, but the instructions state to pressure test the unit prior to connecting gas, piping, water, etc... I believe I have an idea how to do this: modify a 2" plug to hold an air hose connection, plug all openings, replace gauge with a higher reading pressure gauge, fill boiler with water, and put pressure from an air compressor in to 50psi. Then wait a couple hours and check the reading... Does this sound about right?

Also, I have the basics of the setup and piping worked out, but was wondering about the end-of-dry-pipe vent location: previously, it had the vent straight up 6" from the 2" downleg of a bullhead tee, going to the wet return & boiler. I know this is not the best place for it, but moving it back 15" would be quite a task. I am planning to put a 45deg. street elbow in, with a 6-8" straight nipple, and another 45deg. street elbow, to straighten it to parallel with, but offset from, the down pipe. Does this sound reasonable?

I am in the Philadelphia area- Merchantville, NJ: Does anybody know a steam specialist who may be local and can help with the installation & making sure the system is set up right? I need to adjust the mains for proper drop, but want to be sure I get things right... I tried the locator, but it keeps coming back that there is a problem- even out to 250 miles, so I think I need to ask for help!

(Boiler is a Union Steam equivilent of a Weil-McLaine EG-45, and has all the close piping.)

Thanks!

Scott

Unknown · December 2009

Find a Professional

Scott- First of all let me ask you a few questions. Do you have and have you read "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" ? If not, I'd suggest you get a copy in the Shop section at the top of this page.

Assembling the boiler- use a torque wrench to tighten the rods, connecting the sections together, to the recommended torque levels. Pipe the boiler per the manufacturer's recommendations. Keep in mind these measurements are minimums rather than optimums.

The vent location on the tee should be fine. As for a steam pro you might try "Find a Professional' above, scroll down the page until you get to the States and see who is located in near you. If you are close to the border with another state you might check that state too. The software in the "Find a Professional" has be ungraded and there are a few bugs in it. - Rod

Robbie · December 2009

Hi-

Hi Rod- Thanks for the reply, yes- I have read "The Lost Art..." actually have it open on my desk right now, and am glancing through it while I am at work... Haven't found what I was looking for yet.

Also might ask- The old boiler had risers off each of the two outlets of the boiler, 2" each, going into a 2" main. The new one only has piping for 1 outlet, 2", to the 2" main. I have been told this is fine, that 2 - 2" takeoffs into one 2" main is a little overkill... I am pretty sure he's right, but figured I'd ask...

As to the "Find a Professional" section, it didn't seem to like me...

Thanks again!

Scott

Steamhead · December 2009

Uhhh, Robbie

I'm sure the instructions specify the proper way to install a steam header and connect both mains to it.

If you're not sure, call a pro. This will save you a LOT of aggravation.

I'm in Baltimore if you can't find anyone closer.

Robbie · December 2009

Thanks!

Thanks Steamhead- I have to grab the books again when I am back at the house, and take another gander through...

These things are almost as much fun ax fixing aircraft!

Robbie

Unknown · December 2009

Boiler Exit Risers.

In many installation drawings they only specify one exit riser from the boiler though quite often you will find another exit port available. This means you probably can get away with using one exit riser. I think you have to keep in mind that the manufacturer drawing specifies the minimum just to keep the price down so their boiler is the lowest bid. The idea of having multiple exit risers is that it increases the exit cross section and this in turn slows the velocity of the escaping steam. Slower steam carries less moisture resulting in dryer steam. The dryer the steam, the more BTUs it can carry which results in better efficiency. (Personally I'd use every steam port the boiler had.) If you do go will two exit risers, use a drop header. It is only the cost of an elbow or two more and this is made up in labor saving as the dropheader setup is far easier to fit together. I would also consider taking your exit riser (s) higher as the helps in the quest for dry steajm. I've attached a nice drop header done by Norm Harvey. Note how he increased the pipe size coming after it came out of the boiler to slow down the velocity. You might also note the drain locations that he put in the piping. Glad to hear you have "The Lost Art.." Note that Dan recommends a minimum equalizer pipe of 1 1/2 inches. Planout the detail well and you'll be fine. - Rod

Robbie · December 2009

Dry Steam

Hi Rod,

For the connection up to the main, I have a "steam-water separator" which was recommended... Looks like a big barrel on a pipe... Although I thought part of the charm of steam was the moisture it can put into the air, instead of drying the place out during winter... I have not gotten to the point of assembling things yet, but I know the pipes which came with it form a Hartford loop of 2" to the mains, and 1 1/2 to the water return side(and i need to add a 1 1/2-2" elbow to the wet return- originally it has a 1 1/2" -2 " - 1 1/2" tee)

Thanks!

Robbie

Unknown · December 2009

Steam Separator

First of all let me say I'm a retired homeowner and not a steam professional. You will find in the heating business that there are a lot of people who think they understand steam and really don't. I know, I had them do work on my system till I got tired of the incompetence and decided to learn a little bit about steam myself. Every winter you see people come on this board who had what can only be described as a grotesque steam system installed by a licensed heating professional. What I'm saying is regard any advice you get very carefully and double and triple check it until you have enough knowledge to know whether the person giving you advice REALLY knows what they are doing.

What I'm getting to is your steam separator. Some of the best steam pros in the U.S. come on this board and I've never heard of them using one and if you look at this link which has pictures of a lot of dropheaders, you won't find anything like a "steam separator " being used.

[url=http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/164/Steam-Piping]http://www.heatinghelp.com/article-categories/164/Steam-Piping

The only steam separator that I've seen was used on a system which was done with copper piping (a super "NO-NO" for steam pipes) and the owner was complaining that nothing worked and his house was cold.

I see Steam Head has replied to you and if your looking for a steam pro they don't come any better. I only wish he lived closer to where I am. I don't mean to throw a damper on your project just that there is a lot more to getting a steam system configured properly than just connecting a few pipes. Do it wrong and while it may possibly work, it can cost you a lot more on your fuel bill. Take your time, research it , get some professional help from a steam pro and do it right! - Rod

nicholas bonham-carter · December 2009

steam separator

dishonest used car dealers used to put oatmeal into the manual transmissions of the old hulks they sold to make the worn-out gears quieter. the steam separator is the same sort of shortcut, which can only very slightly compensate for poor steam piping. to put it another way, do you ever see an air separator on a poorly designed wing [and for how long?]--nbc

Mark N · December 2009

Steam Seperator

Did anyone go to [url=http://www.unionsteam.com/separators.htm]www.unionsteam.com/separators.htm? Union Steam recommends you use the seperator with their boiler. They use it make dry steam. They also sell piping kits for their boilers

Unknown · December 2009

Piping Kit for "Steam Pros"

Hi Mark- Thanks for the link. I checked it out. On the water-steam separator, while the animated drawing is cute, from an engineering standpoint I have serious doubts as to how well this appliance would work. If you ever seen the Weil Mclain glass piped demo boiler you would know what I mean. This is a link to a site done by Noel Murdough. http://sites.google.com/site/steamheating/%28more%29

He built also built a glass piped boiler and his pictures are very informative. Click on the colored words and they take you to the pictures. Note the bubbly froth in the boiler exit risers and the amount of condensate flowing down the bottom of the header pipe.

Then take a look at the tall exit riser pipes in the picture I posted earlier on this thread and decide which it going to separate the most water from the steam, the tall exit risers or the so called steam -water separator?

I read though the manual that comes with the Union Boiler which has piping diagrams but doesn't mention the steam separator. The interesting thing is that the diagrams and some of the wording in the manual seem almost identical to that used in the Weil McLain manuals. One would then have to ask themselves if a steam separator was so beneficial why don't the larger boiler manufacturers, Weil McLain, Peerless, Smith etc, offer them? We have some of the best steam pros in the U.S. on Wall so you would think that we would see pictures of this separator fairly regularly, though for some reason we don't, one has to wonder why? I think the key to this is a phrase in your post, " They also sell piping kits for their boilers". LOL...Obviously this is for those steam pros that don't know how to thread pipe!

My system, which was installed by someone who called themselves a "Steam Pro", was mediocre . Making just a few changes learned from "The Lost Art..." and the helpful pros on this board, has dramatically helped my fuel bill. My whole point is that it pays to do some research with the idea of getting a system that will work to maximum efficiency.

- Rod

Mark N · December 2009

Steam separator

I'd assume that it would work like the the Anti-Surge Tank that Dan talks about on pg. 45 of the LAOSH. It slows the velocity of the steam allowing the water to drain back to the boiler. I've not seen the live fire demonstration of the boiler nor have I seen a steam separator in action so I can't comment on it either. You never know the separator looks pretty big in diameter its internal cross sectional area might far exceed what your pipes provide. Add to that the 24in. or more above the water line and it might provide very dry steam. I'm not an enginner or a steam pro but I open to the idea that there is always more than one way to do things

Mark

Mark N · December 2009

Pipe Kit

Maybe the kit is to insure the boiler gets installed correctly. From what I've seen here that doesn't always happen.

Unknown · December 2009

you can't go wrong

You can't go wrong using the provided 3" tapping, using 3" pipe and elbow it into drop header set up..

Did a job with leaking Weil Mclain boiler ( 26 yrs old due to improper low water cut off position), repiped the same boiler but using the 3" pipe and drop header... what a whole world of differance on the steaming performance and quieter operation...

Robbie · December 2009

Union Steam/Weil McLaine

I was advised by a contractor to go with the Union Steam because i would save money, but still end up with a good product: it is the "Store brand" of Weil McLaine. This even shows up on the castings- "Weil-McLaine" is prominently cast onto the boiler sections, the same as it is on my old boiler, a Weil-McLaine EG-45. He made this suggestion when I commented that I could pick up the boiler I wanted from one of the local suppliers, and he recommended a different one, and Union Steam. He said he could not touch my job because of the asbestos insulation remaining on some of the pipes...

I did find the guy very helpful, and he was well versed in Steam, and knew "The Lost Art" pretty well. I felt he did ok by me, and i have found no reason to doubt that yet... I have compared both units side by side, and they appearto be the same one except for color and badges...

Robbie

Robbie · December 2009

Pics add to things...

Here are two pics of the old setup...

Robbie

DavidK_2 · December 2009

You are brave

doing this yourself. I assume you've got at least some related experience.

I would think (hope) that using the manufacturer's close in piping should be OK.

I would pressure test the boiler prior to hooking up pipes. Your procedure sounds reasonable to me (but I would not exceed the working pressure of the boiler, 50 psi is probably too high, unless that is what they tell you to do). Better to find out if the boiler leaks before you hook up all the pipes (otherwise if it does leak, you will not know if it is the boiler, or your pipes)

I'd move the main vent - it might be a pain - but if you shove wet steam into a bullhead T it can destroy your vent quickly. Better to do the job right the first time.

Sounds like you have already talked to a pro. It does not hurt to get a second opinion. Sorry I can not recommend anybody in your area - most of the ones who advertise here are good. The hourly rates of a good pro might seem high - but they have expenses - and in the long run it might save you money. Or at least give you piece of mind. They have experience that lets them notice things you might not even consider asking about.

good luck with your project

Robbie · December 2009

Hi- Thanks, Steamhead

You are actually the closest steam pro I can find on the list! Unless you know someone local, I may have to give you a call: Could you drop me a note off-list about what the costs might be? I am about 1 1/2 hours from Baltimore- just across the river from Center City, Philadelphia, PA.

Thanks!

Robbie

Robbie · December 2009

Just a quick nudge...

To bump this back onto the front page: I am still looking for someone in the Merchantville, NJ area(08109) who might be able to swing by and give my system a once over & bounce q&A with...

Got all my piping roughed onto the boiler- might try to fit it all final tonight or tomorrow...wow. Steam heat- might be nice for a change... lol...

Scott

Pressure Testing, Installation questions,and Finding a professional

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