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Can anyone help the new guy?

Perry_3
Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
in THE MAIN WALL
I don't think a second ciculator will really help.

You mention that the cirulator is a Taco. Which series (005, 007, etc).

Normally the way these are installed they can be changed in minutes. There may well be a combination valve & flange (look for a screwdriver slot as part of the flange - that turns a ball valve if it is there; and the slot should be straight in line with the pipe to indicate full open).

As long as those valves are there the pump can be quickly changed with minimal water loss from the system. If those valves are not there - I'd add valves (or flange/valves).

I'd just change the pump right now as they do degrade over time (and that might be your current problem). As the system worked fine in the past - it would be a quick solution. Also - you want to fix it now if the pump is degrading and having problems...before it stops pumping at all (no heat).

Note that I have a single loop monoflow T system in my house. 10 total cast iron baseborad radiators totalling 97 Ft long of baseboard. I currently run a Taco 007 which is perhaps over pumping the system (it replaces a Series 100) as the flow velocites are obviously much higher than before as indicated by the reduced temp drop arround the circuit - but the system does run well.

Perry (a homeowner)

Comments

  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Hi, this looks like a good place for knowledgable answers. I live way upstate NY and its COLD. I have a Utica boiler OHW system. There is one thermostat, and one circulator, both are functioning. The main output pipe of the boiler goes thru a Taco air scoop and branches off with smaler copper pipe to two separate "loops" but not separate 'zones' as in multiple circulators and/or zone valves. This is basically a monoloop set up, with separate branches. It almost seems as if theres an intermittant clog in the cold section, cause I had heat for the last ten days there, before that I had the same problem Im having now again, this cold branch, which runs thru each room, to baseboard registers. Can anyone offer me any suggestions? Or am I scred and just have to wait for Summer to re-pipe?
    If someone could answer me, I would appreciate the help, really. Thanks!
  • Guy Woollard
    Guy Woollard Member Posts: 82
    air

    Seldom is there an intermittent "clog" in a system, usually it is an air pocket. Even though there is an air scoop in the system, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is functioning. Purge the loops into a pail and see if any air is present; if so, replace the vent on the scoop.

    Guy Woollard
    N.E. Regional Sales Mgr
    Triangle Tube Corp.
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Agree with Guy - almost certainly air

    Does your radiators have a bleed vent - If so - ensure the system is bleed well.

    Oh, and make sure that the automatic makeup water system works to maintain proper pressure in the system. It is not uncommon for that to jam shut after an number of years either. I have my system set up so that automatic makeup- pressure regulator can be easily changed when needed. Changing air vents is also routine maintenace after a number of years.

    Best of luck with that

    Perry (A homeowner)
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Hi, thank you gentlemen for the replies. I opened the bleeders and extracted water only. Cold water at first, then after several pots full, warm water. So I guess there is not a clog, but still no heat in that loop of pipe when the furnace comes on...this happened about 2 weeks ago, then magically, came on and worked well, for ten days, and now it is cold again.
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    Sounds like

    a system problem, not a boiler.

    Does the piping go through an unheated space? bled every rad inthe cold loop? are the pipe sizes and lengths in each the same (balance problem.

    Check the boiler make and model, I looked at the Utica site and there is no mention of a OHW as a model.

    Mitch
  • Uni R_3
    Uni R_3 Member Posts: 299
    Is it a monoflo system?

    Do the branches all come off a main pipe? If so, and if air is not an issue than you don't have enough flow to divert heat through that branch.
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Hi, the answer is YES, but Ive been in this house for 22 years, and this is the first time this has happened. How would the flow rate/volume change? Im afraid this section might freeze, and then Im in trouble.
  • Uni R_3
    Uni R_3 Member Posts: 299
    Decrease in Flows

    Well if you're worried about it freezing that rules out changes in Glycol levels.

    If any circuits are obstructed, air pockets, valves closed or partially closed then the flow will decrease.

    Likewise, if the circ is not working as well, then it won't be able to keep the flow up to its old level. Maybe the impellor's worn?

    What kind of circ do you have?
  • Floyd_35
    Floyd_35 Member Posts: 1
    Are you sure???

    That you are not freezing???
    All it takes is a tiny hole at the right spot and the wind coming from the right direction and you got a tiny plug in your pipe. the wind stops and it thaws...the wind changes direction and it thaws... you get the idea. Try linking the wind, temps., and wind direction with when it works and when it don't.
    Things like this can drive ya nuts!!!!

    Floyd

    BTW...you may still get water out of it cause if it only froze on one side.... it still stops the flow trough...
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Thanks for the responses...keep em comin! The circulator is a Taco, and since it delivers heat to the rest of the house, on their respective branches, Im guessing its OK. There are no known draft areas but the pipes are cold to the touch. Should I put some of that thermostatic heat tape on there down in the basement? Im scared about freezing pipes of course, so even preventative measures until the crunch heating season is over will be welcome ideas.

    Answer to last question, no Im not 100% because of what you mention, a partially clogged/frozen area. The system is old, and the valves WILL be replaced this Summer to stainles ball valves for sure, to eliminate that as an issue.

    Thanks, I love this forum site, very supportive.
  • Ted_4
    Ted_4 Member Posts: 86


    You may not be able to get an air bubble out simply by bleeding. If each of the two loops has its own valve, try closing the valve on the hot zone to try to force water down the cold piping. The circulator should be able to provide enough pressure to force the air out. If you get no flow, there may be a frozen spot. If you can't isolate each loop, try raising the system pressure to 25-29 psi with the manual fill valve. This will shrink the air bubble, perhaps enough that water flow will push it back to the boiler. Lower the system pressure after you're done by draining out some water.
  • Lurkin' Murkin'
    Lurkin' Murkin' Member Posts: 136


    It's not clear if you have automatic air vents or manual air vents on the heating loop(s), or where you bled the water from? You said you bled "pots full" of water, so I assume this was done at the near boiler return piping purge valve - if so, did you close the isolation valve next to it? This would insure that you are pushing the water and air through the heating loop to purge it.
    Not that it's relavent, but I think he is referring to "Oil Hot Water" - not the boiler model being OHW...
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Hi, again thank you for all the encouraging help. OK, there are small 'bleeder valves' on the baseboard registers that are turned with a key. This is where I extracted the cold water into a 1 QT pot. the OHW I mention is a reference to Oil Hot Water, which is my type of system Im pretty sure. The furnace is a boiler right? It is a Utica boiler, unsure of the model # but I will look for that. The furnace itself seems OK, there is a small Taco circulator attached to the RETURN. The SEND of the furnace looks to be 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 inch copper pipe. This 'branches' off to a smaller copper pipe which is warm to the touch near the main pipe, but gets cold within ten feet. This is my problem 'loop' or 'branch'.
    There WAS heat here until yesterday. There doesnt seem to be any correlation to wind direction or strength. You guys are great for answering my questions.
  • Uni R_3
    Uni R_3 Member Posts: 299
    monoflo 101

    "Thanks for the responses...keep em comin! The circulator is a Taco, and since it delivers heat to the rest of the house, on their respective branches, Im guessing its OK."

    The water has to be pumped through the mains with enough velocity than when it passes through the venturi in the monoflo is sucks the water through the branch.

    As the flow decreases it gets to a point where for certain branches that are more restrictive than others, the water just ignores the path.

    I have a 3 speed circ on my monoflo. On low speed about 3/4 of the branches get flow/heat. It's not all or nothing like you are guessing.

    Bottom line, you have to have enough flow to overcome the resistance of that branch. If nothing has changed to add resistance (air pocket, closed valve, flozen section) and you don't have heat in that branch, it's because you don't have enough flow.
  • Lurkin' Murkin'
    Lurkin' Murkin' Member Posts: 136


    Given that the one branch pipe gets cold shortly after the split, and you didn't get air out of any of the radiators' vents - it does not seem that air is the problem. If you have purge valves on the near boiler return piping, you could use these to confirm no air in the branch pipe. Be sure to fully close the isolation valve (if you have one, near the purge valve), as mentioned above, when doing this. An isolation valve could also be used to balance the flows through each branch - by partially closing the one on the branch that has good flow, to make the path with the flow problem more desireable to the water. But there must be something not quite right with the circulator or piping, if the system was working fine for so many years previous to now?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,231
    Got Your Xray glasses back from the optometrist?

    Guess what? me either *~/:)

    just jokin ...:)

    my thought is you may certainly be correct....

    while it is true air can cause blockage,...and ice can cause blockage..22 years of labour can cause even some of the toughest things and people to have"blockage" :)

    were i you...:) soory,...what i meant to say is, you need a purge pump and a bucket of clean water....and a couple of ten foot washingmachine hoses..and a junker 4'er for the draw line from the bucket of clean water...hook one hose to the "out" side from your pump to the supply side of the zone, drop the 4 ' hose into the bucket from the "in" side of the pump, hook the other ten footer to the return drain from the loop and drop it in the bucket..isolate the boiler isolate that loop...open the bib /purge valves...wait a second the bucket is becomming Full!...quick! plug in the pump....let that run awhile... you can leave that unattended go about the house and determine if you can hear any "Ratteling" sounds....come back...turn off the pump after closing the return to the bucket and then the supply.... come back and let us know what you find...

    for some reason i honestly belive you in this instance.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Hey Tom

    I have a couple of thoughts.

    We just repaired a job which I think is just like yours.

    Is it one radiator ?

    Is the radiator enclosed in a metal cabinet ?

    Does ot have 1/2" copper risers leaving the main loop and going up to the radiator ?

    Have you done any work latly that would effect how the system works ?

    You certainly could have a clog. Sometimes in systems like I described, the water flow can be so low that sludge can build up. We repaired this by install ball valves on the two riser branchs and a draw-off ( hose bib ) on the return side. That way we where able to purge ( force the water thru the pipe ) and blast the sludge out.

    This was a customer who had been in the house for about ten years and never had a problem when he bought the house.

    Good Luck

    Scott

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  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    Hi
    It is baseboard registers with copper pipe. I would like to install some new ball valves to A) use as positive troubleshooting tools to know YES or NO if the valve is open or closed, and B) to use to throttle or force water through a section but i must wait until the subzero weather is over since the system must be drained down in order to cut it open and install valves. S o a big part of my problem is simply NOT KNOWING for sure whats going on. I tend to agree with all the inteligent suggestions, but Im somewaht bound by this cold dangerous weather and the old age of my valves. I tried last nite to close off one valve most of the way to another branch, hoping this would redirect more flow to the cold branch, but no good. Im assuming my Taco circulator is OK only because I do get good flow and heat in the rest of the house. If anyone is in Essex County New York and would like to come and look, your fee and dinner is on me! Might be a good job come Summer!
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    Tom

    Can you see all the piping ?

    Is it run under a porch or somewhere where it might freeze ?

    You'll feel where its frozen if you can touch it because uts like holding a ice cube. Feel a area where its not frozen to feel the difference. If you have a hunch it night be frozen ... try a hairdryer to blow warm area to the cold spot.

    Baseboard dos'nt ussually get sludged up but it "could" happen.

    Can you show pictures ?

    Scott

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  • Boilerpro_5
    Boilerpro_5 Member Posts: 407
    My suspect is the pump

    I have seen a number of wet rotor pumps slow down, but not completely stop, so branches where flow is easiest still heat, but others not. Not sure of the cause, but it could just be the capacitor. I'd change the pump. In the good weather, I'd move the pump to the system side of the air separator. This really helps get the air out on monoflow systems. And always get the boiler tested with a combustion anlyzer to ensure that CO production is low and there is no smoke being produced that will eventually lead to CO production.

    Boilerpro


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  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    There is no place where the pipe(s) run outdoors or under uninsulated/unheated space. Yes I can see and have mapped all the piping and separate branches. While the coldest section is cold to the touch I dont beleive it is actually frozen. I have been maintaining at least 66 degrees with the help of a Monitor heater installed as supplemental heat (Thank God!) or it would have been much more of an emergency. Part of my trouble also is the inability to get anyone over here. I have called more than half a dozen plumbers/heat repair people..only 3 have returned the call, and only one has actually shown up to look. His opinion was inconclusive, he really did not know what the trouble was/is. It looked like I was fighting this battle alone until I found this website. If I can get it on again, like it came on Feb 1st, by surprise on its own, it would be better of course, upstairs is way too hot now, and the thermostat is in the cold room, which doesnt help any! The monitor constantly running is a help, but certainly not very economical. I just wish I knew more about it, or had an expert nearby willing to come look. Anyone interested please email me at tjw3@charter.net with your telephone number and we can talk. Thanks again everyone, your help is the most support Ive received to date!
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    I will definately have the circ pump checked out when Im finally at a point where that can be done. Is it OK to have a second circultaor installed but not active, as a backup? Is that too paranoid, or is redundant pumps a good idea for emergencies?
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,882
    whats

    the preasure in your system ??

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  • jim lockard
    jim lockard Member Posts: 1,059
    second cirulator

    in series with 1st be ok, may inpede flow a bit but ok. As Boilerpro suggested on supply side after expan. tank best. J.Lockard
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11


    YIKES!! i just had a pipe burst...i shut off the electric to the furnace, closed the feed valve and the return valve pressure was at ZERO, i opened the drain spigot to prevent any more water from entering the house from the burst pipe...is this safe? what do i do?!?
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Call a heating contractor - NOW

    Tell them that you have a burst pipe.

    That will put you on top of the priority list.

    Rig some electric heaters in the meantime. But be very carefull not to overload the electric circuits.

    If the heating contactor cannot get there before the house starts to seriously cool down to near freezing - you need to figure out a way to drain the entire system and radiators so they don't all freeze and crack. You will also need to drain the normal potable water system as well to prevent it from freezing.

    Perry
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Built in electric heat sources

    Electric stoves and ranges, bathroom heat lamps, and electric cloths dryers can all be used to put heat into the house - if you have those appliances.

    Keep the area clear by the electric burners ..... Note I once turned all my burners on Hi and left them (cherry red) and the stove control panel half melted... Be carfull here..

    Perry
  • Tom W.
    Tom W. Member Posts: 11
    THANK YOU EVERYONE at HeatingHelp.com

    Hi
    I have a plumber here now, and he is fixing the broken pipe, replacing the supply and return branch valves with stainless ball valves, inspecting the Taco 007 circulator, and installing a big stainless ball valve on the return to act as a balancing and isolation valve.
    My thanks to all of you who took the time to read my questions and give good advice. I sincerely appreciate it.
    Thanks also to the webmaster/moderator/owner of this website for bringing together people who know little about an essential homeowner topic, and those of you who know what its all about.
    I will write back when I am back to normal with a report and expense details for anyone interested.
    Again, my sincerest THANKS!!!
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