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Dual Knight Boilers (Commercial Install-Job Pics)
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Kal Row
Member Posts: 1,520
and near an elbow or such,
cause the turbulent flow of the water will keep the well clean, as opposed to horizontal mount where lighter than water debris will get stuck in there, the only issue is a leak (which unfortunately happens a lot with these I stock them) where water leaking into the switch might give you a closed circuit if its driving electronics instead of the relay directly (this would the case with the laars endurance (formerly heatmaker) so they need to have it horizontally they still fail miserably)
for boiler protection the most reliable setup I have found is two 110v LowWaterCutOffs (the 24v failure rater is higher) one mounted high in the boiler room above the pumps (to protect them also) with an auto air vent above it (I use a spirotop)
and one mount above the boilers heat exchanger level. AND, a manual reset hi-limit mounted on or as close to the hottest part of boilers heat exchange as possible this eliminates moving parts in the water (the LWCO are electronic and the Hi-limit has a sense bulb though there are electronic water flow switches using sound, or blue-green photodiodes, or radio wave Doppler sensing - but they are still to expensive for our use)
cause the turbulent flow of the water will keep the well clean, as opposed to horizontal mount where lighter than water debris will get stuck in there, the only issue is a leak (which unfortunately happens a lot with these I stock them) where water leaking into the switch might give you a closed circuit if its driving electronics instead of the relay directly (this would the case with the laars endurance (formerly heatmaker) so they need to have it horizontally they still fail miserably)
for boiler protection the most reliable setup I have found is two 110v LowWaterCutOffs (the 24v failure rater is higher) one mounted high in the boiler room above the pumps (to protect them also) with an auto air vent above it (I use a spirotop)
and one mount above the boilers heat exchanger level. AND, a manual reset hi-limit mounted on or as close to the hottest part of boilers heat exchange as possible this eliminates moving parts in the water (the LWCO are electronic and the Hi-limit has a sense bulb though there are electronic water flow switches using sound, or blue-green photodiodes, or radio wave Doppler sensing - but they are still to expensive for our use)
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Comments
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Nearly complete
We are nearly done with this commercial changeout. We had a Kewanee 650K BTU boiler that was sucking down some therms of natural gas. We proposed to change it to two Knight boilers. It went out for bid in a lengthy process. Some of the parameters were to keep the existing compression tank and close-coupled end-suction system pumps. I knew venting would be an issue, but Matt really makes PVC SCH40 shine on this job. More on that later.
Check out the attached picture with the 30 gallon gas heater also tied into the chimney w/liner. That baby never drafted. It is coming out and being replaced with a 52 gallon electric.
Next up, two boilers, no waiting
Paul
Edit: Check out the Biggerstaff Radiant F-150 in picture 4033. It's a real chick-magnet.
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Here is Matts Vent work
He makes it look really nice. We are fabbing up a cap for the chimney to dress it up and seal it tight to the concrete. We will also get the correct termination fittings glued up before it is complete.
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The plan
for the new boilers.
Knight boilers with the internal sequencer. It will handle the reset temp to the fan coils, staging, rotation, and modulation.
It uses shielded communication wire and looks like it is doing to do good things.
I put this PDF together today for the electrician. I wanted to use J-boxes off of the back of the boilers to separate low-voltage and sensor wiring, along with a separate j-box for line voltage.
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Here are the two new boilers. Again, nearly complete
We still have gas piping, condensate neutralizers and pump, insulation, backflow, fill valve, and a little more piping to do. You can start to get an idea of where we are heading. Matt had a few head-knockers going on. I will post a few final install pics next week after it's wired and insulated.
We were going to use 2-1/2" propress fittings on this job, but it was sagging and difficult to keep plumb and looking good. We re-grouped and picked up sweat fittings. Matt did use some 2-1/2 inch caps. They come tapped 3/4" so we used them for boiler drains.
I had considered using a Caleffi Hydro-Separator, but space got chewed up quickly with all of the venting. 4ea 4" lines take up more space than you think.
On the boiler outlet, there is a bulb-well that will be home to the stinger for the Manual-reset high-limit. They had to re-ship them out after the units that shipped were not with the reset button.
Let me know what you guys would do differently. All in all, Matt made Biggerstaff Radiant proud again.
Regards,
PR
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Wow.
What a job!
Wow.0 -
looks good
however, the flow switches are not to be mounted in the vertical posistion with the flow direction down, the paddle could fail open. although i have never seen this. i believe vertical with flow up is ok however. nice boiler changeout. Marc0 -
What Brad said
Wow!. Nice vent pipe work. No purple on the joints. Your inspectors allow that??
Let us know how much money they save noext Winter. WW
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flow switch
How long of a paddle do you have on these flow switches? They seem to be really far from the flow pipe. I wouldn't think you have much of a swing.
Looks like an excellent job.
Brent0 -
Nice looking job. Do you keep a baseball bat in the F-150 to keep all the "chicks" off the truck ;-)
I'm sure the customer will be happy when their utility bills start coming in this winter.
Kudos to Matt, Paul, and all the Biggerstaff crew!0 -
Nice work as always
Have you considered long sweep ell when you have that many bends to make? Or 45's for your offsets.
hot rod
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update
Thanks all,
The boiler inspector defers to standard manufacturing procedures. He will accept our vertical installation with no issues. We called him to be sure. We used the longest paddle but still had to trim it to length.
Hotrod, would you use 45 ells or long radius to gain?...I can't see any net gain in equivalent feet. Is there another reason we should consider long radius elbows or 45's?
Wayne, they would like us to use the purple primer, but we are going to get this one thru. Matt wants his venting to look as good at it is, without the purple mess. We'll see if the inspector comments. I am ready to pull out the Q-tips and purple primer if he does.
Paul
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long sweeps= less pressure drop
some of the manufacture include this data in their Vent Supplements. The Weil Ultra book shows a short turn ell at 16 feet, while a long sweep costs you only 7 feet.. A 45 is typically 1/2 a 90. I use 45's as much as possible when I have a lot of fittings needed. I also use the pressure fitting 45's for a much deeper glue joint.
At some point the amount of piping and fitting starts to cut into the boiler output. As I recall it was the Munchkin folks had a table that showed the output derate for long length exhaust runs.
Increasing pipe size can also help. The Weil 230 shows 30 feet with 3" but 100 feet with 4".
hot rod
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Kal
Bump for Kal. I will put some final pictures on. We have it wired, gas-piped, and condensate run.
Regards,
PR
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thanks, look great...
thanks for the pictures -i will show them to the pri-contractor - seeing is believing
i might not be able to use the pvc in brooklyn ny, since it was filed as a commercial building and requires stainless steel - however the rep told me that there could be a exception if the manufacture specs it with pvc and got its rating like that
i was intending to use a tekmar 265 multi modulating controller fed from a tekmar 420Tn4 boiler control, but i wonder, if i could just feed the 420's 0-10v output to one of the knights, let the knights stage and modulate themselves (just like the "knights" of the round table)
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2ea-105's 3ea-399's
Kal,
Are you planning on using the TN4 on both sets of boilers? TN4 equipment is great. I offer it on all jobs as a "control package upgrade". The 265 can handle 3 boilers or you can put the more leads into each terminal. (2 boilers on one set of contacts.) HydronicsMike (Mike Miller) can help you with that.
The Knights are very well equipped to be "stand-alone" controlled by the sequencer. I only say that because the 265 will not be available in the US until January of 07'.
Regards,
PR
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yeah...
i met the "heat-timer" people ugh! at the buildings show and they were gloating over their lawsuit with tekmar but i told them it was short lived as you cant patent external modulation and ramping if boiler manufactures are designing inputs for it to begin with and are expecting building automation people to use it I cant understand how they even won the first round
I do tekmar for all my stuff so its a shoo-in, and dont worry, if I can get my blood pressure medicine from Canada I can get my 265s from Canada also and maybe after that, I might not even need blood pressure medicine
. I was going to use the "heat-timer" electric domestic hot water temp control system, but I think I going to use a mechanical hi-lo setup from Leonard valve co instead somebody has to put the heat-timer people in their place the 265 was going after a completely different marketplace so this whole legal mess was uncalled for
And HydronicsMike knows me only too well
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Psssttttt......
I have a 265 on my shelf if you have any trouble locating one.
Regards,
PR
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flow switch
Unless I am missing something your flow switch does not do anything. From what I can see you have the flow switch installed on the inlet side of the boiler so the water is flowing down. When there is no flow the paddle will still be down because of gravity. It looks like the flow switch will always be made.
what am I missing?
Brent0 -
Flow Switch
Brent,
It passed muster with my boiler inspector. Pressure drop thru the boiler and near boiler piping will not flow ANY water unless the boiler pump is on and completing the circuit. It works fine. On a call for heat the system goes thru it's protocol to determine modulation and reset temp, but boiler pump must complete the NO contacts on the flow-switch prior to firing the boiler. The flow switch is directly wired to the contacts on the Knight boiler. Seems pretty standard to me. Do you have other enforcable criteria that your inspectors are looking for?
Nebraska boiler inspectors are very finicky about how things are done. We do not cut corners, Period. This switch is correctly installed and functions correctly as it pertains to actuating only when circ pump is flowing.
Edit: The circ pump has B&G Chek-trol flanges, there is no gravity flow thru that boiler loop, and I would be doubtful that even if there was gravity flow, it would not be enough to move the paddle to complete the circuit. If the paddle were to stay down after flow actuates, you either need to replace the flow switch or adjust the sensitivity.
Regards,
PR
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flow switch
I can't tell what brand or model # you are using. This is from a McDonnell Miller installation guide:
The flow switch should be located in a horizontal
section of pipe where there is a straight horizontal run
of at least 5 pipe diameters on each side of the flow
switch. The flow switch may be installed in a vertical
pipe if the flow is in the upward direction.
I think your installation is excellent. I am just asking a question about your flow switch location. Maybe you are using a flow switch which states in the installation guide that you can install it like you have.
http://www.mcdonnellmiller.com/pdf/install_instr/MM-601C.pdf
Brent
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huh?
the paddle is spring loaded - unless defective - and only flow will make it move - if the paddle just flopped around - how could you ever be sure imagine if the paddle just happened to flop towards the closed side and fired the boiler without flow nah, you need positive flow to move it against the spring centering and only the pump can do that,
even the internal ones on tankless boilers that also do DMH have spring centering yes, a mild spring, so the boiler knows if you open the hot water faucet even a little, but a spring nevertheless besides they are designed to be mounted in any orientation at least the ones I have come across
ps I have seen the one you linked to mounted vertically with the adjustment on the centering spring set a little tighter this adjustment is in this same doc their note about horizontal mounting is for longevity so particles dont get stuck near the pivot point and perhaps lock the paddle in the closed position
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I agree with Kal, Paul, and Brent
The flow switch is spring loaded and should self-center when there is no flow. Just the same way it would in any installation. BUT, I believe I have read the same manuf. lit. where they recommend it not be placed in the position Brent describes. I've tried to follow that and sometimes it is a royal pain when things are tight and laid out against you from the start. It's apparently a measure of overkill that the inspector doesn't require so ATTABOY Paul! I remember you when I didn't know what pri-sec was, and you loaned me "pumping away" That was about $500.00 dollars of Dan's books ago, and money well spent! Kevin0
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