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Problem with Indirect overheating

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kevin coppinger_4
kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
in THE MAIN WALL
an IFC circ... w/ sized flo check...

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  • Pat Clark_2
    Pat Clark_2 Member Posts: 102
    W/M Ultra & Amtrol 60 Indirect

    We are getting an overheat situation in the Amtrol due to what I assume is a small amount of flow in the indirect zone when the boiler pump is on (DHW pump satisfied and off). System is plumbed as shown in the Ultra Installation Manual and does have a check valve.

    Any of you guys had this problem before? W/M Tech line says they never have heard of this problem and thinks it may be the Amtrol Control (It is not the control that has been checked)

    Pat
  • Dana_5
    Dana_5 Member Posts: 13


    check valve or flow check. their different
  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    It can happen....

    espec. if you get the flow checks in the wrong place.
    Or the tee's are too far apart for the boiler loop.
    WM has you put the circ. on the return... then you decide to pit the flow check on the supply right before the tee that goes to the indirect. That 0011 fires up and lifts the flow check on the indirect a bit along with the flow check for the boiler loop.
    Had another guy ask me about that just last Fri. I had just been to one of his job's and he was spacing the tee's too far apart. He said he was lifting the boiler loop flowcheck manually with the screw to get rid of the problem, only thing now was that he was creating another problem, only he don't know it....
    Piping with the Ultra's in critical!!! and, I don't like the amtrol's with them cause you can't get enough water through the HX and still get enough through the boiler....unles you throw a big a** pump on there...
    Would love to see pics. of your piping.....

    Floyd
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,340
    Pat

    I think Dana is on to something. Could your flo-check be stuck?... If the control is shutting down the zone or pump for the Amtrol, looks like you have additional flo when not required resulting in the overheating. What temps are we talking about? Flow check good,...Check valve bad..:-) Pic's would be great.........

    Mike T.
  • bob elmore
    bob elmore Member Posts: 41
    over heating indirect

    had this problem with an ultra and weil gold plus
    indirect. had Weil rep. @ job, he advised that flow checks
    sometimes need to be over sized. provided B & G paper
    to back up his claim. my customer added an additional
    horiz. swing check, problem solved.
  • Jason_22
    Jason_22 Member Posts: 39
    I went to a home today

    We just installed a Ultra 105 w/ a Plus 40. I have the thermostat way down on the indirect and the homeowner says that the water is way too hot. We use the Grundfoss 3 speed pumps w/ check inside. I would doubt that the oo7 would push through the indirect on a call for heat. Anyone else with this setup had probs?
  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    What size piping??

    And... how is it piped???? Any piping problems will show up here... if you have more restriction through the space heating loop(s) than the DHW... you will have a problem..

    Floyd
  • burninben
    burninben Member Posts: 33


    Is the flow/check on the domestic water side? If so you will have relief valve probs, without a domestic water expansion tank.
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995


    Just a thought.... If you have a tempering valve / anti scald valve on the indirect to protect the DHW users, this may be a benifit, not a problem. The extra energy going into the indirect when the burner is firing can also come back out when the burner is not firing if the circ is still on. This effectivly adds thermal mass to the system reducing short cycling or cycles per hour.

    I intentionally wired my indirect's circ to come on whenever a heating zone calls for heat and saw an over 5% reduction in fuel usage.

    Ron
  • Pat Clark_2
    Pat Clark_2 Member Posts: 102
    Update on problem

    Thanks for the reply's.

    The problem is definitely a small amount of flow when the boiler pump is on and there is a call for heat.

    We have considered 3 remedies so far.

    #1 Install a mixing valve on the outlet of the Amtrol tank. This will bring the temp down to prevent too hot of water to be delivered at the faucets (this also allows for more hot water available). However the Amtrol control will still show ERR2 which concerns the homeowner and I don't feel like owning any problems with the Amtrol in the future.

    #2 Install a zone valve in the DHW line to the Amtrol for positive shut off when the Control is satisfied. This was my first thought originally and our local W/M rep also determined that this would work. Only drawback here is cost and future inspections may confuse tech due to zone valve and pump on the same line. May get altered in the future and result in problem recurring.

    #3 As stated above by honest bob, install an oversized ck valve.

    We are going out today and install an 1 1/4" spring ck valve in the line. We will leave the swing ck already in place. If this doesn't solve it we will install a zone valve. Will let you know results and will try to remember my camera to take pics also.

    Thanks for all the information.

    Pat
  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 995


    I would not add a zone valve to the indirect. That could be a serious bottle neck to recovery. A flowcheck or spring check is a far better choice. I really like the B&G Hydrotrol.
  • dana_3
    dana_3 Member Posts: 57
    WM ULTRA

    has anyone ever considered instead of piping the indirect the way the picture's show. just pipe it like any other zone on the boiler, and eliminate that hodgepodge of piping they (manufact) show.. Hmmm let me see. makes sense doesn't it Dana P.
  • Tombig_5
    Tombig_5 Member Posts: 60
    Wm w/indirect

    Dana, piping the indirect as drawn allows the heating zones to be on the OD reset while the boiler ramps to full fire and shuts off the boiler pump on a DW call. The "plug and play-ability" of that set up is uncompromisingly simple. Buderus GB, Lochinvar Knight, and TT Prestige all pipe and control the same. They can't all be wrong.

    I've had success with swing checks on a 45* pitched pipe. That little tink, tink sound when the DW pump shuts off tells me it's working. If I used an FC or spring check I'd upsize it.
  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    No, not really....

    your missing the point of why they want you to pipe it that way. They want you to set the DHW up on proirity... that means not running the space heating circ. when your making DHW. They want you to use a separate circ. for the DHW and be able to get plenty of flow through the DHW HX. Also by piping as they show the amount of heated piping used for the DHW is minimal, which gives less heat loss into your envelope when making hot water in warm weather, giving greater eff..
    All you have to do to make it work right is pay attention to the details and make sure that you be the water....where is the easiest route of flow???? It's that simple....

    Floyd

    Also what Tombig said... good point about the reset!!
  • Tombig_5
    Tombig_5 Member Posts: 60
    Ultra pic

    This was my first one a few years back. The 45'd swing check is behind the water heater. This is before the plumbers piped the domestic water. They opted not to install a mixing valve. That Plus 100 has 1 1/2" water and 2" (I used 1 1/2") boiler taps. Boiler is a 230.

    I had problems with DW overheat but it was the control, not ghost flow. I replaced the block plugs on that one too after a year or so. WM was on top of both issues. They've been getting a little bashed around here and I'm here to say I'm still a fan.
  • Pat Clark_2
    Pat Clark_2 Member Posts: 102
    Update on ck valve install

    OK, just got back from installing the 1 1/4" spring ck and with heating zones calling and boiler hitting close to 180, the temp in the piping to the Amtrol was slowly and steadily dropping in temperature. Cycled the Amtrol and no lockouts so flow is good on DHW line.

    I believe our problem is fixed.

    This thread was not intended to bash W/M. We normally install Burnhams but I have been looking for an opportunity to install an Ultra and this was our first. I really like this boiler, and this was the only problem we encountered (other than we had to run the comb air and flue thru a 2 story 7" B-vent because the homeowner didn't want to sidewall vent the unit, man was that tight, but looks and works great). I took a few pics with my phone to post, one is kinda fuzzy but you guys can look at them here.

    Thanks again for all the help. On to the next problem, another day another 100 dollars.

    Pat
  • Pat Clark_2
    Pat Clark_2 Member Posts: 102
    Update

    Just got back from installing the 1 1/4" spring ck in the DHW zone. Fired off the boiler and had close to 180 degree boiler temp running thru the heating zones. The temperature of the supply pipe to the Amtrol slowly and steadily continued to drop.

    I believe we have solved the problem.

    This thread is not intended to bash W/M. We normally install Burnham, but I have been looking for an opportunity to install an Ultra. I really like this boiler, have included a couple of pics, one is kind of fuzzy though. This is the only problem we had with this install, and now that it appears to be fixed, the homeowner and I can just be happy now. It's always fun to run into wierd problems and then be able to fix them. One of the reasons I got into this business 35 years ago. It would get boring if nothing unusual ever came up.

    Thanks again for all your help.

    Pat
  • Tombig_5
    Tombig_5 Member Posts: 60
    Pat

    Nah, I meant the other threads bashing WM. The install manual for the Ultra is very comprehensive. Follow the pipe routing and sizing and all is well.

    Tom Goebig
  • Floyd
    Floyd Member Posts: 429
    Pat...

    A few observations.....
    From the looks of things that boiler is at least a 155, if I put my lips really tight together and blow hard through them the picture gets clear and I can see that the pump is an 0011 :-) then after cleaning the spit from my screen I see that the piping all looks to be 1".. I think that WM likes it to be 1-1/4, even though the boiler has 1" out. Also if you would have taken the tee at the top left, spin it 90* clockwise and moved it right, tight to the other tee that is the supply from the boiler, you wouldn't have had the problem. As I said before.... flow is critical on these...
    Hey, I always am looking for ways to do things better, that's why I'm here.... and I can't hold still long enough to take a clear picture either... :-)


    Floyd
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