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advantages of systems steam/hot water

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My experience with older commercial buildings is that there is much to gain from simply maintaining or even fully restoring the steam heat system. When thinking of conversions to hot water it should be clear that what is meant is abandoning everything steam and rebuilding a wholly new water system with new boiler, new pipes, and new radiators/convectors, all done at once. The slightly remote savings that may be envisioned through steam parts reuse are not worth the catastrophic trade off in performance you'll get from a hot water system that was not designed optimally to begin with.

Looking at a building that needs all new heat, new hot water is perfectly fine, and I would not short change myself of the low temperature radiant and condensing boilers and accompanying system design. Many who own old and drafty buildings also try forced air systems, but this in not a good choice here because of the air leaks. This also introduces small burners everywhere which are a pain to look after and where expensive gas failures go unnoticed for months. These are the same issues you get with radiant gas fired units, on top of the fire hazard. Going all natural gas, you also loose fuel flexibility opportunities.

What about steam? A decently operating set up runs with the same system wide efficiencies as low condensing temperature water does. If you have small (or large) district system with a whole boiler house set up operating at 100+ PSI, your whole system efficiency is even further increased.

What's the problem with steam? Piping layout, sizing and design do not forgive mistakes. Details can bite. On the other hand, pumped forced water allows for careless pipe flow during installation. What's even better, forced air allows the installer to be totally lax about even the sizing issues. This is not to say that good workmanship shouldn't be sought but that you can get by with total junk, which with steam, you can't.

Incidentally, this is yet another reason why steam systems are top performing. They are (or were in another age), by default, designed and built with much more care for optimum operation. If you already (or still) have it, you're in luck.

The seventies and the space age saw us abandoning many old time proven skills in exchange for short term promises. We probably believed that wearing silver colored suits with the pants tucked in the boots -like the astronauts did in TV sitcoms- would be enough to keep us warm. Well, now we know better and thanks to this HeatingHelp, steam is being rediscovered. The missing accessory to the synthetic fiber silver jump suit: the tin foil hat.

Some more about steam

Leaky pipes are very easily fixed (in the field, with clamps or repair welds). The zero pressure makes it worry free. Once old pipes are filled with water, they can't easily be fixed under pressure, they can't be opened up anywhere and certainly can't be welded anymore. Repairs prolong system life indefinitely. Steam mains are always very clean and sound, horizontal returns are the weak point (stainless makes for nice applications here).

Steam control is very intuitive. Steam comes with its own brain, it will find the coldest place to condense in a properly air evacuated system. Add non electric thermostatic valves, or orifice plates, or working manual valves and you are well on your way to a system where the individual users make the final heat decisions. Run the boiler on outdoor temperatures and only during business hours or mostly the mornings for great cost savings.

Steam pipes (properly pitched) empty themselves of all water and thus stand proud in the face of the coldest winter wind. This is a big problem in buildings with remote parts that can certainly freeze. Think of the piping along an outside wall or under a window left open for the weekend. The same old pipes filled with water is a recipe for disaster. Even if you fill them with antifreeze, if you don't monitor your fill valve you might easily dilute your glycol with a small leaks.

In a factory environment, pipes often get in the way. Steam pipes always being empty are easily taken apart and moved. Pipes with pressurized water in them are another story altogether. Pipes with water in them that are driven into with a forklift are a big splash and provide more fun than the simple broken open steam pipes. :)

For fun with steam, look for horizontal steam coils or fin tubes of which the trap is plugged or has been replaced with a cap. The tube fills with condensate, of course, which then freezes itself open into a mud spill. Worse, with an appropriately collapsing steam bubble, you get some mad ramming action that blows away a fitting. This is the most horrible bust you can get but it is very easily preventable. Tourists take just as many pictures of Old Faithful than of the Niagara Falls.

Trap maintenance is very important and very easy. With a little planning, there is no pain to it at all. The boiler requires some attention, but any appliance that guzzles thousands of dollars should never be left unsupervised. Watching it like a hawk and monitoring any problem is a must (steam or water) and is easy and pleasant to do from within one single central boiler room. One fire also gives you easy burner efficiency tuning and upgrades and fuel flexibility.

Proper maintenance comes free.

With zero maintenance, the only trouble you get yourself into with steam is steadily decreasing efficiency. But you still get heat. Which is fantastic when you think about it, and it is also the downfall of steam systems. The negligent owner does not think there is anything wrong with the zero-no maintenance plan because heat is still coming out the pipes, then, with this assumed blamelessness, all the finger point towards the poor steam boiler which is working as hard as it can (and at great cost) to heat the building. The good never get all the recognition they deserve.

Come, those of you reading who have a boiler, run downstairs, give it a big pat on the back and kiss it's forehead. That machine feeds on expensive energy and worrying about its diet is just as worthwhile as anything else: you're paying this guest's food charge, make it a good friend.

Note that water systems are by no means maintenance proof. Quite the opposite. Zone valves alone are a mess; multi-way mixing valves are a great danger to efficiency all on their own. Frozen pumps at the beginning of every heating season are good reasons for no heat calls. But, to the credit of hot water systems, whenever they suffer a problem, the need to call for help is obvious to the owner and the return of heat is the reward for proper maintenance. It's not like that with steam where an owner can savagely brutalize the central heating system for a long time before it gives up. Valved and pumped hot water and forced air systems conk out much faster from neglect.

All this considered, for your explosion proof paint factory, I would embark on a steam system restoration. After a new boiler (which seems due no matter what) and all new traps, you'll be done with major costs. Condensate returns often become functional again once a leaking trap is replaced. Then, the piping repairs and the penthouse redo can all be tackled in small manageable chunks as you go forward. If the de-aerator is beyond talk, then at least a steam heated feed water tank and water treatment should be considered.

To steal your line, peace and good luck. I hope your owners will be interested in reading all of this as I am sure you will. This sort of in-the-field trip beats any touristy destination.

Comments

  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,228
    advantages of systems steam/hot water

    Well i could use a little help i was asked to write up a list of advantages of just staying with steam or converting the building to a hot water based system.Now here's the catch there 6 mbtu boiler is dead fire tube and has been re tubed each year and has reached it's limits and company that re tubes it has refused to re tube stating that the front and rear plates are wraped that aside the issue is they don't like maintance and the yearly re tubing indictaces that.There are long gravity return lines which go to condensate pumps which are non functionally,bad traps and oh yeah no controls the pneunmatic contrll system was ripped out so it just runs free there are many many componets that where removed, outside roof top penthouses who pneun=matic dampers are long gone so they pull in alot of outside air constantly .Oh yeah did i mention the building is explosion proof .So all pumps and controls have to be located in the boiler room or we just slip in a new slighty smaller steamer and start a very long list of small medium and large repairs this system has been very negeleted and even after alot of repairs we allready know that i will not see the maintance that it should be recieving .Replacing with Hot water would have a larger up front cost but i feel that they will do better here because they don't mean to but they just don't do maintance .Any thoughts that come to mind i will be talking to the owners in a few days on another note i did approach them months ago on the subject but they where not worried about it i had informed them that either way it would take at least 2 months to do now it's august so you tell me you think they will do anything or just frezze thanks ,peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Where to start, Clammy?

    That is a list of woes...

    What kind of building is it by the way?

    It seems that the piping is shot, the boiler obviously...Tube rotting indicates other issues such as no water pre-treatment or even a deaerator...Have room for one if you stay with steam? Rooftop units are shot so there is another thing... big job!

    How are the regular heating emitters? If the radiators are pin-holed convectors and have to go, what is left to work with? Bupkes. You have a tabula rasa, a blank slate on which to create your best work.

    Are the radiators CI and tubed for either HW or Steam? If in good condition and heat loss will support using the radiators with hot water, I think you have an opportunity here. My hope is that the steam is needed only for heat and not for process work.

    But unless this is a new owner, the attitude about cutting corners will not bode well for the kind of quality you would want to install, IMHO. I would hope it is a new owner with a sense of value not just of cost.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,228
    where to start

    There are coils in the penthouse and in air based ducts which would have to be changed to meet heat lose and as for controls there are none pneumatic controls and compressor are gone just on off control,bad condensate returns bad situtation ,old owners .The building is used for R&D, manafacture and store paint pigmnet.They don't use the steam heat for any processes as far as i have been told they where the ones to inquire about a water bases system.I was thinking of radiant suspended panels for most of the building and possible a roof top penthouse boiler room for one slighty remote storage building under 2 mbtu lose .In the other building alot of reoplavcement of rad s ,piping and replacing steam coils with hot water coils on some a/c only rooftop units.Building has a explosion proof rating but many fan coil units have been replacedbut not to explosion proof rated .It's a real nitemare to repair all the steam promblem could be alot of work and due to the conatance lack of maintance i feel a new steam boiler will fall prey to the same issues the other one did .Peac and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    I have the same sense, Clammy

    Steam is not properly cared for and it is too bad.

    Personally I like to stick with radiant for such applications. I did a pulp and paper factory in Maine some years ago with progressing coldness. The convectors (cabinet unit heaters) turns out were plugged up with lint like you read about. Useless and once identified, a constant maintenence headache. Cast iron would have been so much better. Nothing you can do about ventilation units though except good filters.

    A total heat loss may reveal that they have abundant emitter capacity as it is, that might work with HW, especially if their needs changed since the factory was built. Worth a shot. Otherwise rebuild to steam, put in a proper deaerator system and chemical feed system. I suspect that the condensate leaks lead to the cycle of make-up water, that rapid run to ruin.
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Yes, stick with the steam

    if the building is explosion-proof you don't want to make many changes to it. See if you can go to gravity return, that will simplify things. New trap innards, TRVs and reset will give you the control you want.

    Unless the system is a total loss that is. Then whatever you do may need an engineer's blessing. Brad, you up for a road trip?

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  • Brad White_106
    Brad White_106 Member Posts: 8
    You know, Frank

    I wish for reasons like this that I were my own boss and could make such a field trip. That would be nice. Busy patch here at work, a vacation thrown in plus two days at Viessmann in Warwick -too much fun!

    But I agree with you ultimately, if explosion proof, stick with steam and if pumping is a must, use pumping traps. Sparingly.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,228
    i bailed

    The owners are looking more or less on a cheap band aid a mircale of huge proporition which as of late have given up doing church andyou all know ,plus there is nothing short of a miricale that would get all the required work done before alot of there water based pigiment would be garbage and there wet based sprinkler system would propbaly burst .I myself shall not return to do work here for they have yanked my chain on a few projects so i am offically throwing in the towel i will do no more planning and fiquring all the bs out they are on there own .The main reason for a conversion is no one does maintance if even forced they will not and they will pay no one to do it either unless you would like to do it for free materal and labor .Peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Brad White_108
    Brad White_108 Member Posts: 23
    Sometimes that is the best thing, Clammy

    I suspected that the owners "knew the price of everything and the value of nothing". Your talents will always find an appreciative home. Many homes..

    Between you and Christian (more poetry from the Buckeye State!) and all else who contributed. I think enough energy has been thrown their way.

    Good call.

    Brad
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    For miracles with steam pray to Saint Cecilia

    This saint who lived in Italy at the time of the Roman Empire was the member of an early Christian family. Then pagans came and chopped the heads of her family members like one removes air vents from a beautiful radiator.

    The pagans had a grand plan for Saint Cecilia's martyrdom: to cook her to death in a steam bath. This day was planned for November 22, and so the steam bath was prepared and the pressure was cranked up. But knowing what we know today about steam heat and how resilient these systems are, Saint Cecilia did not die. The pagans, exasperated found themselves a hack with a big axe, who after many whacks still did not succeed to the full satisfaction of everyone.

    Saint Cecilia survived to become the saint patron of musicians, her head dangling by mere threads. Her corpse is interred in her basilica in Rome while her skull has appeared in several other churches - simultaneously.

    And we wonder what's going on when air vents whistle and steam pipes bang. It's music.

    Don't go off chopping your traps.



  • Brad White_108
    Brad White_108 Member Posts: 23
    From Ecclisiastic Observations

    To Eglisiastic explanations.

    Always a treat, Christian.
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Still time to repent while laughing hysterically

    Clearly, we're stepping into church turf here, and on Sunday even. Thanks Brad, your kind word makes me feel all saintly and makes me blush.

    By the way, Clammy, I am sorry for your fall out with this customer. Business is business and your profit is your business. Good luck any ways. And while you pray for a miracle, put in a thought for Brad and I, will you please?

This discussion has been closed.