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Radiant Question

Dave Yates (PAH)
Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
in THE MAIN WALL
not doughnuts! Anything but doughnuts - my one weakness in life (ok, one out of a bunch!). When I first started in business for myself, I figured stopping at the local doughnut shop for a sinker (or two) and coffee every morning was a perk I could give myself. Thinking I could make up for the time by working a bit extra.

My, what a diff in my own productivity the day I stopped that ritual. Never looked back, but occasionally a stray doughnut craving causes my truck to swerve into the DD parking lot.

Tried wading through the beurocratic quagmire that exists in PA and darn near drowned. Aside from feeling lost in never-never land, I'm no closer to finding anyone who can point me towards the elusive education department.

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Comments

  • RonRH
    RonRH Member Posts: 3
    Radiant Help

    I have an older radiant heating system with small black tubing, driven by a Polaris Water Heater and Grundfos pumps. Recently the main "pull" pump went bad, and was replaced by a Grundfos UP43-75F pump. The company that installed it said nothing about it, but a subsequent servicer pointed out that it is cast iron and will ruin my system. I'm certain if I call the installing company, they will claim the pump is fine....and maybe it is. Would love to get your collective thoughts?
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,230
    type of system

    Is this system also used to heat your domestics hot water if so i would probalby guess this was a inter net brought system ifthis is so then that circ should have been a stainless or a bronze pump instead of the cast iron body type cicrulator .If so you may end up with rust appearing and the pumps volute will probalby form rust and destroy the pumps impealal .Check to see if this is so and if so call them and have them put the correct pump in and of course you know stainless and bronze pump do cost more .Good luck and peace clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • RonRH
    RonRH Member Posts: 3
    Separate

    Thanks for your response. The Polaris Heater that runs the radiant heat is actually separate than the water heater for my home.
  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Oxygen barrier piping

    The key piece of information is the type of plastic pipe material being used for the radiant system. If it IS an oxygen barrier material (PEX), then there should be no problem. If the piping ISN'T an oxygen barrier material, then oxygen will diffuse into the fluid and corrode any ferrous materials that the oxygenated water runs past/through. Stainless steel fittings and pumps can be used on a non-oxygen barrier system wihtout any problem.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,231
    this tubing sounds vaguely like the solar mat tubing....

    it has headers with twin tube stuck into them.

  • RonRH
    RonRH Member Posts: 3
    Tubing Response

    Thanks for the information. How do I tell if my tubing is PEX? The system is close to 20 years old, it is about 1/4 inch thick, and has the feel and consistency of flexible black rubber. Any way to tell if it is oxygen barrier based on that description?
  • ms_2
    ms_2 Member Posts: 1
    radiant heat

    do i need insulation under radiant heat in concrete in basement
  • Ed_26
    Ed_26 Member Posts: 284
    insulation

    Under concrete? YES! - 2" styrofoam is best - why heat the world?
  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Find a pipe label

    Can't tell from a vague description. Is there any kind of printed label on the pipe? Offhand I'd say this is not likely oxygen barrier pipe, and the iron pump WILL corrode out and fill your system with crap fairly soon. The safest thing is to change the pump out to a stainless steel model or all-bronze model.
  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    Wrong, Ed

    unless the sub-strait is bedrock or water table issues. A radiant slab below grade, on a good plot will take longer to "equalize", but the earth will become it's own insulation barrier once thermal equilibrium is reached. And, besides, most basements won't call for heat often if a below grade open area. Daylight basements are another story. Edge insulation a must, if you don't want to "heat the world", but even then, it becomes an energy consumption issue($$$). But, "heat the world"? No, just your "little" part of it.

    Jed
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,669
    you're describing

    EPDM tubing..the tubing was made by Bio Radiant Systems in Ellenville, NY. It does not have an O2 barrier. Protect the system with non-ferrous pump and fittings. Clean the existing system with chemicals to remove sludge when re-piping. See Rhomar...

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  • Ed_26
    Ed_26 Member Posts: 284
    wrong?

    How so? If the earth below the radiant slab is 40f & your water temp & slab is 80f the heat will go to the earth, no? If heat moves to cold? The slab will radiate in all directions, therefor, the slab without insulation on the sides & bottom will lose btu's to the earth, & the response time will be very slow, & inefficient. However, as you say, the mass will give back some btu's. But in the search for efficiency, & low cost building conditioning should we not strive to increase the envelope efficiency to reduce our demand on the system?
  • Unknown
    Unknown


    Or if the ground gets wet, ever, or if you're over clay. In those cases, you have a very significant heat sink waiting to happen.

    The rest of the time, it's just a small heat sink and a major thermal mass. If it's not walkout, the thermal mass if of little consequence.

    Unless you are absolutely sure of your site conditions, you need to be insulating. Up here in the northeast especially, there are precious few sites that would not benefit from it.
  • ALH_4
    ALH_4 Member Posts: 1,790
    I would insulate

    The thermal mass point is a good one. I'm of the mind that high thermal mass in the heat emitter is a bad thing. The concrete is a necessary evil, but why include several inches of gravel and soil below the concrete?

    -Andrew
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
    IMHO, Ed right, Jed wrong... UNLESS...

    the energy is free then Jed right.

    Even my basement, which is 85% below grade calls for heat on a regular basis.

    I had a customer once who built on top of a granite mountain. Had to blast the rock to get the floor height he was looking for. Against our advice, he did not insulate. His heating system ran for a month, and he got a $2,000 heating bill. Had a COW. We reminded him of the insulation thing. He shut up and disappeared.

    Jed, you obviously don't have your customers best interest in mind making suggestions like that. All studies I've read and seen are contrary to your position. If you are doing it from the stand point of trying to cut corners, you are not being very ethical. Show me an official report by a recognized testing agency to back up your claims, and I'll eat my words.

    Here's a little inside news to those of you who deal with the International mechanical/conservation code. Below radiant insulation (slab, suspended, whatever) is going to be MANDATORY in the next few years thanks to the efforts of myself and a group of conservation minded building officials...

    Might as well get used to doing it before it becomes mandatory...

    ME
  • Dave Yates (PAH)
    Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
    Kinda takes the fun

    outta doing things right when others do it wrong(G). Better build in code inspector training ME. Otherwise you'll get this (from a job last week):

    Installed an attic HVAC system to make up for the too-small zoned ducts serving the second floor.

    Stopped by twp for the req'd permit. That'll be $175.00 if you please! For what? I asks. Well, you need two permits - a building permit and an electrical permit. I'll be sending two inspectors. Holy smokes, that's a bundle for such a short trip and glance at our work lady, can I get a breakdown to give the HO? No, but I'll get the twp mgr. He is not amused that I've asked for a cost breakdown - "That's what we charge, so you'll pay that amount." he stated in an obviously miffed voice. Gee willikers Mr. Twp Mgr, sorry I bothered you. She says to him "Can I just send so&so or do I need to send both inspectors? Just send one, he says. OK, I says (not knowing when to keep my yap shut), if you're not sending both inspectors, do I get a cost break? Wheeling around to snap at me: "Look, I told you before, $175.00 is what we charge."

    Inspection time arrives. Do he look in the attic at our extra-thick insulated sealed ducts that are code-compliant? Do he check the unit for its exhaust/intake venting? Do he check to see if the condensate is correct? Do he check the freon line set? Do he check wire size? Do he ask for our Manual-J take-off or design? Do he check anything? Sure does: "Next time you install a 220-v line, be sure to put either red or black tape on that white wire or I'll flunk the job." That's it? For $175.00, that's all we get? Do it occur to him that any lunkhead that can't look at a double-pole single-throw breaker and NOT KNOW the business end means you're looking at a "hot" wire shouldn't be removing the cover and that said lunkhead won't have a clue what a red or black piece of tape will mean? The HO paid for something that didn't happen - the inspection that should have been performed.

    No wonder schlock work doesn't get caught & that's why we were there installing a second system that never should have been necessary. Two doors away, we replaced a sewer line last year because the original installer decided removing a vein of rock was too much work. He simply raised up the PVC drain and created a 30'-long belly. That too was "inspected". How he missed a 2.5" rise of fall in the wrong direction is a mystery to me. Sure looked odd when we video'd the line. Not the same inspector, but it was the same twp. Doesn't really matter though, it could just as easily be (almost) any of the twps we work within.

    Write all the rules ya want. Without the proper training for those who are tasked to enforce said rules, they're not worth the paper on which they're written. And, just once, I'd really like to see them go after the clowns who are working without licenses and permits.

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  • Ed_26
    Ed_26 Member Posts: 284
    design/inspections

    Yup!!! bin der, don dat. Still fighting, still standing, bury me with a smile!
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,231
    Let those who have ears to hear.....

    No mystical hocus pocus,Insulation,Ventilation, Heatilation....laws of physics function... thats the agreement we have on this planet.
  • Derek Moore
    Derek Moore Member Posts: 13
    yes

    use 1" extruded polystyrene made by dow (dowboard) and Owens Corning. It comes in 4 x 8 interlocking panels and 1" (R5) is plenty. This is MUCH stronger than styrofoam, you can walk in it without it breaking up. Do not forget the vapor barrier and edge insulation. Use the energy to heat ONLY the slab, it will keep your running costs down.

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  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    Mark

    I can certainly see from my post that you would justifiably conclude that I recommend some slabs not be insulated. But, that is not the case. I ALWAYS recommend slab insulation, or advise as to what R value the analysis was based on if I can't influence the builder's intentions. There is a very wide range of heating contractor expertise in my area. Some have very good and close relationships with the builders, others do not. Some builders have no real control over the concrete sub, and I have seen concrete companies refuse to put insulation on edge of a monolithic slab. I cannot control that( in the instance I specifically refer to, the HO was horrified at his oil fuel bills the first winter. Yes, there was grass growing next to the slab in January). But that was a slab -on-grade. Certainly, slab-on-grade radiant systems require insulation, and probably a slab sensor to boot.

    I mainly was referring to completely below grade foundation slabs(6' typical). Yes, soil conditions need to be right. And Rob is correct in that the correct conditions in northern New England are rarely right for thermal mass insulation effect. But I have had feedback of basement slab zones, with tubing, rarely, if ever, calling for heat. Every job is different. You're in Colorado, I'm in Maine. I, personally, would not recommend a radiant slab heating zone for a full foundation home below grade. It just complicates a typical, average home's RFH system.

    So, insulate, of course. But, "heat the world", NO.

    Jed

  • Tony_23
    Tony_23 Member Posts: 1,033
    Exactly

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    I sometimes wish I was in a city environment with more codes and licensing. Then I read a post of yours like this one, and realize it wouldn't be any better. I'm better off "competing" with a dozen than a hundred, it's easier to stand apart :)

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
    Thanks for the clarification Jed... (NM)

    ME
  • Dave Yates (PAH)
    Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
    Clarification

    I'm not against tightening up the regs, which - in a better run world, would certainly help those of us who strive to do things right - the first time. My problems with adding any additional regs (confusion) at this time have to do with the dearth of professionalism we're getting for the large permit fees. At $175.00 and less than 15-minutes of time "inspecting", we didn't get the level of service required to justify the fee and the homeowner's best interest were not served. Might as well put the code book pages to the same good use the old Sears catalogs got way back when the only plumbing was in a tiny out-building with a half-moon on its door.

    The real kicker is the $2.00 "education fund" fee attached to every permit for educating the inspectors. After collecting this state-wide education fee for most of a year now, it's high time they started using those funds for their intended purpose! I'd willingly serve as one of the instructors for PA if the opportunity ever arises to help educate inspectors and improve the system.

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,160
    It will Dave...

    If you present it such. I teach an annual IMC course for the local chapter of the I code people. They approached the RPA, and my name was passed on to them, and I've been asked back for a third time.

    Contact your local building officials group and let them know you're interested in teaching them things they need to know about radiant, and I guarantee youll have a sell out class. Just like I did, twice. It also makes for good PR, cause then when the inspectors run into your work in the field and realize that you don't just talk the talk, but also walk the walk, things go much smoother...

    Offer your services. I'd bet you a box of donuts they will accept it if they're worth their salt.

    Demand to also see their books showing where ,how and on what they spent their education dollars. This is America after all, and like it or not, they work FOR the PEOPLE. Not themselves.

    Give'em hell Dave... Softly :-)

    ME
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