Radiant Heat isn't about the feet....

Tim_33 · August 2006

John, and all forced air bashing wetheads,

Can't you promote the benefits of radiant heating without reference to the poorest versions of forced air systems? My house, for instance, has a very well sized, laid-out and installed forced air system and exhibits none of the BS terrible qualities you and the soggy noggin's claim. It is quiet, comfortable and efficient, with the added bonus of introducing fresh air, humidity control and air filtration. It does so virtually unnoticeably.

I AM a great fan of hydronic heating and cooling systems, I design most of my commercial jobs around such. Sometimes, however, forced air "only" systems are more appropriate. All commercial systems have to addres ventilation, by Code. As an engineer, you have to recognize that never does one size fit all, nor does one type of heating system excel at all applications. Being a specialized tradesman, you seem not to be able to recognize that fact.

True professionals can perform excellent work and promote excellent products on their merit, and merit alone and not lower themselves to the level of mudslinging. This obviously does not include you, and anyone that has regularly used the term "scorched air". The typical usage is indicative of ignorance rather than professionalism. One company with a website goes so far as to devise a fictitious (and debatablely impossible) scenario of a failed heat exchanger that constantly puts deadly gasses into your home. What a crock!

Every forced air system is not uncomfortable or drafty and noisy. Only the worst. There's plenty of hacks in the trade, wetside AND dryside. If you want to compare poor systems, then compare a poor FA system to a poor hydronic system, or vice versa, compare well done to well done.

Shame on you for lowering yourself and your profession.

John Ruhnke · August 2006

Radiant Heat isn't about the feet.............

Hi Everyone,

The marketing guys are hurting the reputation of radiant heat. They keep talking about warm toasty floors. Warm toasty floors is not the reason radiant heating is so comfortable. When newbies (People who never lived with radiant for a while) step on those floors barefoot for the first time they may complain. The floors don't feel warm!

Radiant heat sends radiant waves through the air and to you. It slowly heats objects, including yourself before it heats the air. With radiant heat your body feels warm and comfortable over a wider degree of temperature ranges. Thus you are always comfortable, not to hot or to cool.

A hot air system heats the air by the movement of air. The air has to be moving past you for it to work. This movement of air is constantly changing your body temperature. You either feel to cold or to hot depending if the air is warmer or cooler then required.

Even in a low e house a radiant heating system is going to feel way more comfortable than forced air.

The best way to do radiant is by outdoor reset and constant low water tempertures. In that situation you will not notice the floors being warmer. You will not notice any kind of heating what ever. You will just be nice and comfortable. Comfort is not noticable. In a forced air house you will be looking to add or remove layers of clothing, you will notice the air temperature difference. You will be uncomfortable and I promise you, you will notice that. When you are barefoot the floors will feel cool, but as cool as they feel they will always be warmer then they would be with forced hot air.

With a radiant heated house you can come home from a hard day at work, sit in your cozy chair, flip the tv on and relax!. You will feel very comfortable. That is the advantage of radiant!!

Warm floors is a geat slogan for all of the marketing campaigns. For a newbie that never had radiant it is hard to explain the comfort that you get. The marketing people take the easy way out and talk about the warm toasty feet. This is easy for the homeowner to understand. They get a picture in there heads and choose to buy radiant. Unfortunatly it is a misconception because the comfort doesn't come through the feet. They step on the floor barefoot looking for warmth and they don't notice it. They notice conduction. Conduction is a form of heat tranfer that happens when you are in full contact with the surface. Of course they feel cooler because the floor is cooler then their body temps. Of course with forced hot air it would be even colder and more uncomfortable. Later, when walking around in there socks, when they are warm and comfortable, they also may not notice how comfortable the room is or the rest of the body is. Comfort is not noticable. When you are uncomfortable now that is very noticable. So now they complain. All they need at that point is for someone to explain how radiant works. Later that night when they are watching tv they will think to themselves, "You know I am not hot or cold, I guess I am comfortable!"

JR

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

I.m not bashing, I'm stating facts...

Tim,

What bashing am I doing?

It is science. The faster the air moves, the faster it changes the temperature of your body. You feel hot or cold. You feel uncomfortable. Forced air moves the air. If it doesn't move the air enough then you end up with cold and hot spots. You have no choice. With forced air you have to move the air.

Radiant Heating doesn't move the air at all. The changes in body temperature are much less. Thus you don't feel too hot and you don't feel too cold. You feel comfortable over a wider range of temperature.

Radiant heat sends radiant waves through the air and to you. It slowly heats objects, including yourself before it heats the air. With radiant heat your body feels warm and comfortable over a wider degree of temperature ranges. Thus you are always comfortable, not too hot or too cool.

I guess you don't live in a radiantly heated house. Otherwise you would understand what I am talking about. I am very comfortable all winter. I wouldn't give up my radiant heat for any money in the world. What good is wealth if you can't live in comfort?

Why do you think that 67% of all new construction in Europe is radiant heat? When done right nothing beats the comfort of radiant.

JR

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Brad White_9 · August 2006

John,

Why try to convince Tim he is uncomfortable? He already said he is not. He has an appropriate system for his needs, he is comfortable. He knows as do we all, the benefits of radiant heat.

Tim was explicit in his satisfaction, why try to tell him he is wrong? Is he not the best judge of his own comfort?

Yet you persist in trying to tell him that his own perceptions are wrong and that he knows nothing about it because he happens not to live in a radiant-heated home.

A touch of hubris today, John?

EDIT: John, you wrote: A hot air system heats the air by the movement of air. The air has to be moving past you for it to work. This movement of air is constantly changing your body temperature. You either feel to cold or to hot depending if the air is warmer or cooler then required.

Not quite. A properly applied warm air system (whether gas fired furnace or hydro-air, it matters not), the air for primary heating is distributed at or along the building perimeter. It warms the outside wall surface and creates a warmer layer there, thus sparing the body (85 degrees more or less as Mark points out) from radiating to what would be a colder mean radiant temperature.

I think we found out why you seem to despise FHA, John-

You seem to describe it as standing in the path of an intermittent hair dryer.... some may be that way, but as Tim points out, that ought not define all.

We agree on the benefits of radiant, John. Why diminish that with comparison to the worst of FHA systems? Let the benefits speak for themselves.

Tim_33 · August 2006

What bashing?

You stated "...The air has to be moving past you for it to work. This movement of air is constantly changing your body temperature. You either feel to cold or to hot depending if the air is warmer or cooler then required. "

This is just plain false. IF you were in still air at 80 degrees, would you feel warm? IF you were in still air at 30 degrees, would you feel cold? The answer to both of these questions is "Yes". You agree?

Unless there is a problem with you or the controls of the system, you do not either "feel too cold or too hot".

You state that you are comfortable all winter. I have a forced air system and I can state exctly the same thing: I am comfortable all winter. This is a fact. (But I can add: also, all summer.) I can add humidity to my house if I want to and can control it at any reasonable level I choose, can you? I bring in fresh air via my system all winter long, can you do that with your system? I can recover the warm air that collects near the ceiling of my great room with the always used fireplace, and recirculate that throughout my house, can you? I can cool and dry the air with my system. Can you do that? I can filter and treat the air in my home with my system, can you do that?

I have experienced a radiantly heated home. YOU have obviously never experience a properly done forced air system if you believe what you say.

The bashing is that you (and others who) are either doing so purposefully or out of ignorance(you choose) are grossly overstating the comparative comfort.

IF you are in a home with radiant heat you will always hear water noise screaming through controls valves, right? It must be so because I witnessed this once myself. So because of one poorly designed and installed system, I, like you are doing, can by extension, condemn every similar system of the same faults, right? WRONG, I cannot, and I know better. But you seem to beleive that all forced air systems are drafty and uncomfortable, because that is what the common "line" is for your trade, or so it seems. Further ignorance is evidenced in the fact that you believe that, with warmer than air floors, a radiantly heated space is not subject to air currents. Impossible.

I agree with the fact that a well done radiant system is very comfortable and quiet. I do have radiant heat in portions of my home (my garage and tile floors). I also know for a fact that a well done forced air system is not that different, in that it too is very comfotable.

Mark Hunt · August 2006

Not to nit pick but

radiant heat should not be "sending heat at you", it does not need to since we are already warm.(Approx. 85* with one layer of clothing)

Radiant will cause the objects around you to be closer to your body temperature thus slowing the the radiant loss from you to those objects. Think "cold 70".

Mark H

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

Let me explain..........

Tim,

You said "This is just plain false. IF you were in still air at 80 degrees, would you feel warm? IF you were in still air at 30 degrees, would you feel cold? The answer to both of these questions is "Yes". You agree?"

You are looking at it all wrong. Of course 80 feels hot and 30 feels cold. When is a heating system ever set to 80 or 30?

Some people like it to be 73 in a house. Others like it to be 68 degrees we all have different body thermostats. With hot air you notice the temperature differences more. You have to have that air temp just right or you feel uncomfortable. That can be very hard to accomplish. The movement of the air over you changes the tempurature of your body faster. Thus it is harder to find just the right temps. You may say you are comfortable in a well designed forced air house. Yes compared to the other badly designed forced air house you are comfortable.

A well designed radiant heating system will always outperform a well designed forced air system in efficiency and comfort both.

With radiant heating it is much easier, you are comfortable at a wider range. Say 67 to about 74. Two people can be comfortable together in the same room with radiant. It is much harder with forced air heat.

Tim you also say "Further ignorance is evidenced in the fact that you believe that, with warmer than air floors, a radiantly heated space is not subject to air currents. Impossible."

You are twisting the words around in your head to make thingsd sound better to you. Please stop that. Of course it is possible to get air currents in a radiantly heated house. The air still needs to move much faster in a hot air house then a radiant house or you will have worse comfort problems, like hot and cold spots.

JR

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jp_2 · August 2006

boy,talk about nit picking....

I lived most my life with FHA, I see no horrendous difference between the two. guess I occupy my time differently. all this constant talk about horrible FHA kind of makes me laugh.

any system can make you feel too hot, too cold, too dry...etc

by the way, in the winter, if my feet are warm, I'm happy.

John Ruhnke · August 2006

No he isn't the best judge..............

Brad,

Radiant heat is more labor intensive and costly then forced hot air. Here in America we like to do things the easy way. Marketing helps to promote false senses of reality. Hot air out numbers radiant heating here greatly. These hot air guys like to kid everyone by saying they can produce just as comfortable a system. Its like a guy who owns a Chevy Impalla and who claims his car is just as comfortable as a cadilac. Of course he never owned a Cadilac so how would he know?

Doctors used to give sugar pills to there clients. The power of persuation is huge.

Europe is willing to install the more expensive and comfortable systems. Why? Because they live with radiant and would never ever want to switch to forced air. Ask them. When they come over to the USA the first thing they want to do is get rid of the hot air system. I know, some of them are my clients.

JR

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Brad White_9 · August 2006

John, that was a rhetorical question....

You may have missed that. Tim absolutely IS the best judge of what is right for him.

Do hydronics a favor: Learn to speak with people, not at people. Convince them with logic, not the brute force of your beliefs.

I believe you have much to contribute, John, but the dictatorial approach loses folks fast in my opinion.

And by the way, Dale Carnegie made the switch, from radiant to ground source, not that you asked

John Ruhnke · August 2006

What type of system do you have now?

JP,

Tell me a little about the heating system you are living with now?

JR

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

You miss the point...........

Brad,

You are missing my point. He is not the best judge of which heating system is most comfortable. He doesn't live with sole source radiant. His rooms, even the rooms with radiant have air moving around. Technology is progressive. Living in a cave is more comfortable then living outdoors in the cold. Heating the cave is more comfortable then living in a cold cave. Centrel heat is more comfortable then fire places. Radiant is more comfortable then hot air.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I simply research the facts and state them. I do this for the benifit of everyone. I don't care if you like me or not. You want Dale Carnegie? Fine. He is a great sales man. Go ahead and live in his house. Keep taking your sugar pills, eventually your believe what the sales man says.

I'll keep my comfortable radiant heating.

P.S. I never bashed hot air, I just stated how radiant was more comfortable. He brought up the word "Bash" and now I am made out to look like the bad guy?

JR

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Tim_33 · August 2006

So now you're claiming

that two people, that would not both be comfortable in the same room if the temperature varied by as little as 5 degrees are somehow both miraculously going to be comfortable at greater temperature differences because of the magic of radiant heat. The temperature must be "just right" for forced air, but can vary as as much as 7 degrees for the same people with radiant. This not true. The variances of what makes one person comfortable versus what makes another person comfortable do not dissappear in the presence of radiant heat. That is an unupported claim that you will find no evidence of in the real world. Here or in Europe.

Based on your continually repeated assertion that "air still needs to move much faster in a hot air house ...or you will have worse comfort problems, like hot and cold spots" I have to believe that have little or no experience with forced air system design. A properly designed forced air heating system actually provides very slow moving air to a space. It does so in locations that are most effective in minimizing the effects of cold surfaces such as extrerior walls, doors and widows, and provides effective air diffusion.

Just as the knowledge and experience that you have in your very specific trade is indispensible in your ability to apply that to create comfortable and well functioning systems, the same applies to the many types of systems, with which you do not know about. Your examples are of only the poorest types of installation errors, not well functioning systems done right.

John Ruhnke · August 2006

What?

Brad,

You said "A properly applied warm air system (whether gas fired furnace or hydro-air, it matters not), the air for primary heating is distributed at or along the building perimeter. It warms the outside wall surface and creates a warmer layer there, thus sparing the body (85 degrees more or less as Mark points out) from radiating to what would be a colder mean radiant temperature."

What?

None of that makes any sense. The air flows everywhere in a hot air system. Why do you think you end up with much higher ceiling tempertures? Why do you think that with forced hot air the second floor is always five degrees hotter then the first? The air currents are moving pretty good every where and the hot air rises. Heat doesn't rise but hot air in movement does. That air is moving all over the place.

On a radiantly heated home the air temperatures are much more consistant from mid height to ceiling height. The air doesn't rise like it does with forced air.

JR

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jackchips_2 · August 2006

Brad,

do you wear a helmet when you periodically hit your head against THE WALL?

Jack asks rhetorically.

Brad White_9 · August 2006

Jack-I am half-Swedish...

Hard hats are entirely optional...

I will have to ask JR how I feel today. He knows better than I do, it is rumored

Cheers!

Brad

Brad White_9 · August 2006

JR, save time

Tell JP what kind of system HE is living in right now....

Mark Hunt · August 2006

Like this?

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

Sarcasm.......

Brad,

You like being sarcastic here? What is with your attitude problem?

I see we have all of the engineers going against me here. You, Tim and JP would just love to prove that I don't know what I am talking about.

I fight to be called equal with engineers and you just can't have that can you?

You guys are going to give me problems all the time aren't you?

JR

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Tim_33 · August 2006

I agree with you John,

when you said "What?

None of that makes any sense."

That explains why you beleive what you do about FA systems. You don't understand their operation.

And these are classics:

"Heat doesn't rise but hot air in movement does."

"The air doesn't rise like it does with forced air." and

"On a radiantly heated home the air temperatures are much more consistant from mid height to ceiling height." You should have lumped this in with the other marketing myths.

The laws of physics have been suspended for JR and rediant floor heat! There is stratification in every heated space, without exception. In a space with a good forced air system, there no more stratification that in a space with RFH, usually less.

BTW, the reason that there is significant temperature differences between floors in SOME forced are systems, John, is due to poor system design, namely inadequate returns on the second floor. Air will only go where you want it go, only if you make it do so. This is addressed by System DESIGN. But again, you use only examples of installation ERRORS. Understand that if nothing else, John. The "common" characteristics you keep referring to are MISTAKES, not common or prevalent in good systems.

John Ruhnke · August 2006

What are you saying?

> when you said "What?

>

> None of that makes any

> sense."

>

> That explains why you beleive what you

> do about FA systems. You don't understand their

> operation.

>

> And these are classics:

>

> "Heat

> doesn't rise but hot air in movement

> does."

>

> "The air doesn't rise like it does with

> forced air." and

>

> "On a radiantly heated home

> the air temperatures are much more consistant

> from mid height to ceiling height." You should

> have lumped this in with the other marketing

> myths.

>

> The laws of physics have been suspended

> for JR and rediant floor heat! There is

> stratification in every heated space, without

> exception. In a space with a good forced air

> system, there no more stratification that in a

> space with RFH, usually less.

>

> BTW, the reason

> that there is significant temperature differences

> between floors in SOME forced are systems, John,

> is due to poor system design, namely inadequate

> returns on the second floor. Air will only go

> where you want it go, only if you make it do so.

> This is addressed by System DESIGN. But again,

> you use only examples of installation ERRORS.

> Understand that if nothing else, John. The

> "common" characteristics you keep referring to

> are MISTAKES, not common or prevalent in good

> systems.

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

Don't lie to me..........

Tim,

Don't lie to me. Your title that you agree with me is an outright lie.

The air has to move for forced air to work. Through this movement the air temperatures are hotter up high then mid level.

Now Tim you are debating this. Reality is much more important then physics. Remember according to the rules of the physics back in the early 1900's the Wright Bros plane wouldn't fly. They held the patent up in the Patent office for years because of that. Luckly those two trades people made their plane fly.

I have tested many systems with my infra red remote thermometer gun and rest assured the hot air systems have a lot more stratification then radiant. You should always first believe what you see. Then believe what you read second.

JR

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Brad White_103 · August 2006

John

Yes.

John Ruhnke · August 2006

Thanks....

Brad,

O.K. well I apreciate the honesty. Hopefully we will both learn from each other and get smarter from these debates that I am sure are going to keep coming.

JR

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Brad White_103 · August 2006

It is all in good fun, John

But the points made about taking the worst of a given system as an exemplar of all systems of that type is not responsible, IMHO. It diminishes the positives of radiant when you use the negatives of another irresponsibly.

But it is only sarcasm if you take yourself too seriously. Seriously!

Unknown · August 2006

The Man has a point.

I wish evryone would just get off John's case here. If you wanted a comfortable, relyable and efficiently designed radiant home, who would you call? An engineer?

The "Warm cozy floors" slogan is a joke > in a tight houseTo Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Supply House Rick_2 · August 2006

JR

Dear John,
My heart going boom boom boom, grab your coat, I've come to take you home

Peter G.

Unknown · August 2006

now,now....

Lets stop this bickering and break for the news

API (Poland): A small two-seater Cessna 152 plane crashed into a cemetery early this atfernoon in central Poland. Polish search and recuse workers have recovered 300 bodies so far and expect that number to climb as digging continues into this evening.

Mark Hunt · August 2006

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA~!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps we should all grab our shovels and go help?!?!?!?!

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!

Mark H

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jackchips_2 · August 2006

I heard

the two people on the plane walked away.

Jack

Mark Hunt · August 2006

STOP IT!!!

YER KILLIN' ME!!!!!!!

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

ROTFLMA!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark H

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Supply House Rick_2 · August 2006

Gary & John

Supply House Rick_2 · August 2006

A Dear John Letter

What about this?

Tim_33 · August 2006

Physics and reality?

When you made the statement that "None of that makes any sense." that was by YOU and applies to YOU. And that I agree with, fully. What I don't know is how I can help you make sense of what I understand completely.

Reality and physics are one in the same my friend. There was never any "laws of physics" that contradicted powered flight, those laws are unchanged by man, regardless of our fleeting understanding of such. There were many naysayers that thought, based on their incomplete understanding of the unchangeable laws of physics, that it could not happen. They were obvioulsy mistaken.

I still beleive that you have yet to see a correctly done forced air systems and your observations continue to bear that out.

Tim_33 · August 2006

That is a fiction

Look at the numbers and you can be assured it BS.

Gordy · August 2006

Mr. Wallace Makes a Valid Point

Gary Makes a valid point, about the lack of warm floors in a low energy house. This statement then evolves into "when does radiant make sense"?

Since I do not have a super energy efficient house I enjoy the warm floors, and ceilings. As the outdoor temp drops it gets cozier. "Liquid sunshine". But I also miss a conventional FA system for AC in the summer.

So whats the threshold, does radiant always make sense, I think not.

Gordy

John Ruhnke · August 2006

Physics and the Wright Bros...........

Tim,

I am sure you could design a nice hot air system. I'm sure it is more comfortable then some other hot air systems that I've seen. Some day I may encounter one of those systems and my mind may change. I have been wrong before. I keep an open mind no matter what I may say now. I have looked at a lot of high end systems both radiant and hot air. Most, even the radiant ones are poorly designed.

Reality and Physics are different. Physics is based on a set of rules and such written in a book. Most of the time the laws of physics are right, but not always. Never believe 100% what is written in the books. I learned that a long time ago from my auto racing days.

The Wright Bros first built some gliders. After testing them they found the results to be poor. They checked the physics tables that they had used. According to the tables the gliders should have flown much better, but they didn't. Why? Well the Wright bros went back to there shop and did a bunch of experiments. They built a mini wind tunnel, miniture wings and gliders and such. They then rewrote the physics tables for lift and such.

Using the new physics tables they created, they built a full size plane and in 1903 it flew!!

Yes it flew and the rest is history.

Don't trust everything you read.

Yes it is important to read. I read a lot. Just keep an open mind. When working in the field look for signs. Test theories out. Experiment a little. You will learn a lot. Also look to learn from others experiences in the field. If someone spends a lifetime of tuning boilers and now teaches a class on it. Listen and learn you might pick up a few things on combustion efficiency and they may contridict what is written in the books. The guys name is Jim Davis. Jim is really sharp. But as smart as Jim is don't believe everything he says.

JR

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Couderay · August 2006

ceiling fan

So what does a ceiling fan do in a radiant atmosphere?

John Ruhnke · August 2006

RE:

Joe,

A ceiling fan serves two purposes. It cools you down when the temps are higher then you want (fast change in body temperature) and second it pushes the heat down off of the ceiling to improve efficiency.

Not needed in a radiant heated house.

If you did happen to have one you would be less comfortable when it is on then when it is off.

JR

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

How would you know?

> Look at the numbers and you can be assured it BS.

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John Ruhnke · August 2006

The Survey says radiant is more comfortable!!

I have asked many different people wether they think radiant is more comfortable then hot air. This is from a group of people that have lived with both.

90% say radiant is more comfortable.

9% say that between the two systems they don't notice the difference.

1% say that hot air is more comfortable. This one person had a solar gain problem on her system. Even with the radiant off all day she still had the same problem.

It is obvious that the majority of people that have experienced both systems think radiant is more comfortable. Ask around and you will get the same results.

JR

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Radiant Heat isn't about the feet....

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