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Should I convert from oil to propane?
Options
Hakky
Member Posts: 2
My oil burner is apparently on it's last legs, according to the tech who cleaned it last week. The service manager also came out to talk to me about new boilers, and gave me 2 quotes, one for a Burnham LE and the other for a System 2000. He said that my burner is "not that bad" but that still, I should begin thinking about a replacement.
When I do replace the burner, I want to give serious consideration to switching to propane, since I can do much more in the house with that fuel (gas fireplace, cooktop, etc). I like the flexibility that propane provides as my wife and I renovate the house.
I guess I'm looking for any advice or thoughts that may be helpful to me as I begin the analysis of the costs associated with this. I'm certainly no expert, so i don't know if there's much variation between an oil vs. propane installation. I do know that there are tax credits available for efficient propane burners and water heaters, but not so for oil. So I think that could reduce my initial cost by a fair amount.
Anyway, i'm looking at the following information:
1. Installation cost
2. Tax credit for efficient equipment
3. BTU's per dollar at current oil/propane costs
4. Efficiency of boilers
I think I can manipulate this info into a spreadsheet that will analyze the best option at todays prices. Of course, there's much fluctuation in energy prices lately so who knows where prices are headed.
Any thoughts would be helpful. I'm in New Hampshire, with a 1800 SF Cape, forced hot water baseboard heating.
When I do replace the burner, I want to give serious consideration to switching to propane, since I can do much more in the house with that fuel (gas fireplace, cooktop, etc). I like the flexibility that propane provides as my wife and I renovate the house.
I guess I'm looking for any advice or thoughts that may be helpful to me as I begin the analysis of the costs associated with this. I'm certainly no expert, so i don't know if there's much variation between an oil vs. propane installation. I do know that there are tax credits available for efficient propane burners and water heaters, but not so for oil. So I think that could reduce my initial cost by a fair amount.
Anyway, i'm looking at the following information:
1. Installation cost
2. Tax credit for efficient equipment
3. BTU's per dollar at current oil/propane costs
4. Efficiency of boilers
I think I can manipulate this info into a spreadsheet that will analyze the best option at todays prices. Of course, there's much fluctuation in energy prices lately so who knows where prices are headed.
Any thoughts would be helpful. I'm in New Hampshire, with a 1800 SF Cape, forced hot water baseboard heating.
0
Comments
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hope this helps
Go with the System 2000.
Stay with oil. you can burn oil, kero, or bio fuel if you have to, with propane you are stuck with the company that provides the tank and their price.
with oil you generally get @ 140,000btu's of heat per gallon, the equivolent of propane is just under 100,000
having said that propane stoves, grills and clothes dryers are all more efficient than their electric counterparts.
You could go oil system 2000 and propane with everything else, that way your heat/h/w would be the most efficient and then you'd save electricity on the others, your call
the system 2000 with the carlin burner is very efficient and you can get it in gas or oil.0 -
Hi Hakky,
Here's a link to Energy Kinetics that shows fuel comparisons:
http://www.energykinetics.com/heatingfuelcomparisons.html
The System 2000 can do oil, natural gas or propane with burner change.
As Gene pointed out Oil gets the most btu, but you have the choice of continuity if you wish.
In any case the EK-1 oil-fired, which we just had installed a couple of weeks ago, is about as quiet as a gas burner, so an EK-1 on gas would probably be even quieter still.
Obviously if you have to have an in-ground oil tank removed it will be more costly, but other than that I don't know how installation costs will vary from oil to propane.
We're getting a $500 tax credit for the EK-1 as it meets the Energy Star specs.
Good luck!
Howard Emerson
Huntington Station, NY0 -
Huh?
Consider both oil AND gas. NG is now 1/3 the cost of oil and continues to plummet in price (futures). It burns cleaner, requirs less maintenace and the boilers using it that get over 92% AFUE, are numerous. The S-2000 isn't even close!
The S-2000 gets a maximum of only 87.5% AFUE and is roughly twice the size of what the average house needs - meaning short cycling problems. Unless you have a very large house, this boiler is not for you.
The FCX by Monitor however, is (to the best of my knowledge) the ONLY 92%+AFUE oil-boiler in town - and the only real oil fired option I would consider.
Gas would be my first choice for many reasons. Among those reasons: Oil is noisy, more expensive, requires fuel storage on-site, requires more maintenance, and are generally more expensive to buy and install.
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one quick question....
do you have the records of the previous years Gallons of fuel used sept -> march and march ->sept and the current prices of propane and fuel oil in your AREA?
this is not really a good way to make the decision yet it can give you some idea of whats what provided the older boiler info and the type of burner(nozzel,stack temp ambient at boiler) it has on it is added into the Guesstimate.0 -
Like Converting from Buddhist to Unitarian
I would stick with oil for the reasons Gene mentioned. All fuels have their ebbs and flows...0 -
$500?
Thanks for the reply. I thought the maximum allowed for a boiler was $150 tax credit. At least that is what the energystar.gov website says. Perhaps you know more about the rebates than I do.0 -
http://key8361.keyrewards.biz/Federal__State_Tax Incentives_05.262.pdf
Hakky,
I don't know what state you're located in, but here's the chart that shows NY and MA
HE
PS-If I read more carefully I'd have seen you're in NH......doh!0 -
Ken
Ken , he probably does not have a choice of NG in his area. If N.H. is like Mass then N.G is not 1/3 the cost of oil,not even close. Propane is more exspensive than oil no question . You can have propane for appliances and oil for heat not a problem thousands of folks here have done that for decades.
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AFUE
Is a poor indicator of a system's real efficiency. Very recent ongoing testing at Brookhaven Labs has shown that the System 2000 is more efficient at 87.5% AFUE than a wall hung condensing at 92%AFUE. Because of the energy recovery cycle of the System 2000 even oversizing by 3X has virtually no effect on the overall efficiency.
Natural gas costs vary over time and in the past 30-35 yrs most of those years oil has been cheaper. You also have the advantage of being able to pre-buy oil at a known price (sometimes it gets tricky though) or just shop around for the best price.
Propane is usually but not always more expensive than fuel oil per 100,000 btu's and since the propane co usually owns the tank you are married to them.0 -
NG/ Propane
Most of us in the rural areas especially in New England don't have a NG option. Propane in my experience is much more expensive than NG. Wish we could hook to a gas main, but not available here in Maine. It's oil, propane, or wood if you're ambitious.0 -
If you had a low temp system, I'd say propane mod/con, no doubt about it.
In your case, with baseboard.. could go either way and neither would be wrong, IMO. The System 2000 is a fine oil boiler for sure.0 -
Here in VT
LP is a tad cheaper than # 2. I assumed the price of LP was always higher than anything but electricity. I was dead wrong. At least up here. I would say LP and #2 each have roughly 1/3 market share. The remaining 1/3 being wood.
I locked in at $2.58/gallon for # 2 in August. LP was 30% cheaper (obviously discounting for lack of BTU content when comparing gallons to gallon).
I find large regional differences troubling. This market-place is anything but "free." Therein lies the problem.0 -
Is the
"Energy Recovery Cycle" a feature of the boiler itself, or a control made by someone else?
If the latter, they can all get better performance - and, has nothing to do with the S-2000 or anyone else's product.
The AFUE is far more valuable than claims to the contrary of those that cannot get decent numbers within its guidelines. Those that have poor AFUE numbers, compared to those that can and do - always bemoan the shortcomings of test reults.
Knowing the folks at BNL as well as I do, last time there, we did see a S-2000 there, but saw other makes as well. The S-2000 was nothing to brag about according to my sources. I have yet to see one that didn't leak or have "fur" leaking from the HX for the poorly designed indirect arrangement.
Oil? I'd opt for the FCX. LP? I'd opt for the Munchie.0 -
Brad,
All fuels have their ebb and flo...., The yin , to their yang. How VERY....ZEN. Wow, I may have to re-think my outlook....yet again. Chris0 -
Yes, Grasshoppa
You are on the verge of Grand Master as you toil away in Milne Dojo.
:^)>0 -
LPG/Oil
Propane (Liquified Petroleum Gas) is made from the same stuff as fuel oil, so the prices generally follow each other. The key word is "Generally". They can vary region to region. You can get 90% plus furnaces in propane, so that is a plus. Condensing furnaces are available in oil, but I'm skeptical. Seen it before. Time will tell.0 -
The System 2000 is a fine choice and mantains high efficiency even when oversized. In almost all cases, oil is less cost per btu than LP except with radiant floor and a condensing boiler.(and then oil is often still cheaper)
While LP and oil tend to track somewhat in price, oil gives you the opertunity to use available or soon to be available Biodiesel. There is no available Bio alternate to LP yet.
Personally, I use oil for heat and hot water but LP for cooking. If NG was available I'd change the stove to it in a heartbeat but I would stay with oil for heat and hot water.0 -
The Energy Recovery Cycle
is a feature of the system manager that is part of every System 2000. It is what makes the system so efficient. We don't have an issue with AFUE because our system looks bad if that's the only comparison, we have an issue because it doesn't indicate the true "system efficiency". Brookhaven at this time is in the process of developing a different method of determining a system's true efficiency. AFUE was developed for warm air furnaces and adapted to hot water and steam boilers. However, the run cycles of warm air furnaces and water or steam boilers are different and have other losses not taken into consideration by AFUE.
The testing being done now confirms what Energy Kinetics has been saying for over 25 years.
As far as leaks, if you're referring to leaking converters(boilers) our failure rate is very low. We have excellent quality control, use only domestic steel and fittings, and because it's a steel boiler, each one is checked by an ASME certified inspector.
For the leak issue on the plate exchanger unions, I found from my own experience that if a little silicone lube is put on the threads and they're not overtightened, I seldom have a leak.0 -
So the boiler is
not what makes it "special." It's the control someone makes for you.
The manner with which you and a few others write and respond so positively about the EK products, while attempting to sound like contractors - in reality sound more like folks who in fact have a stake in the company?
There's nothing wrong with that. But it is essential we understand you are not one of us, speaking candidly about field experiences, but rather someone who has a financial stake in promoting this product - and with a bias that is more self-serving than objective.
I just wanted to make that clear - if in fact I am correct.
Lord knows, I have been wrong more than a few times. Sadly, I suspect I am not this time.0 -
The boiler is also what makes it "special" It is very low mass so it's standby loss is very low and it is the standby loss that causes most systems to perform MUCH lower in efficiency than their AFUE.
And no, I don't have anything to do with the company.0 -
OK
I'll bite. When your not being the poster boy for EK...
What end of this biz are you in?
Wholesaler? Rep? Marketing staffer?
And is there any business relationship between you and Jim, the guy I asked the question you answered for?0 -
A small point about propane. You can buy the tanks. I don't know if there are regional rules against it. When you do this you can shop for LP if you wish.0 -
Hi Ken,
I am in the Solar biz but have a lot of experience with energy efficient heating and I work at Brookhaven Lab but not in the oil heat division.
Didn't we meet at the "Meeting of the Minds"?0 -
and another small point about propane
As noted right off the bat, most people will be wed to their suppliers. Here in upstate SC, some suppliers are considerably more customer-responsive than others. I know this to be true through years of church & secular non-profit emergency assistance (and because I'm wedded to/victim of a big and unresponsive supplier). If you go the lp route, you might consider an informal poll to see who's happy & who's unhappy (correcting for curmudgeons & pollyannas). A company's attitude can change over the years, but no reason to start off with somebody with a bad attitude. It's easier to switch suppliers with oil.0 -
Perhaps,
But since losing my mind a few days ago...
I've been to a few meetings, perhaps the one at BNL ;last year?
Yusef and Tom are both friends and travelmates. We did ISH some years ago together with Ray from NYSERDA and our wives. I think a guy named Holohan was in the 'hood as well (:-o)
Last thing: Is the S-2000 rated/certified [GAMA-AFUE] with the gas power burner?0 -
what you call me ??
Who's Dojo ?
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S-2000 (To Ken)
To: Ken
Re: S-2000
Its called System 2000 because it is a complete engineered package supported by Energy Kinetics, including the 5 zone energy manager control for providing both the heat and hot water. The System 2000 has no problem with having its AFUE at 87+%. The AFUE overrates all boilers regarding true seasonal energy consumption because of standby, jacket and draft regulator losses, which reduce the System 2000 seasonal (true) efficiency to 83%, while most other 85%+ AFUE rated units range 56% - 63% in true seasonal efficiency.
The system design includes an energy recovery cycle because the low mass heavily insulated boiler with only 2 ½ gallons and 160 lbs of specially formulated ASME steel can distribute its energy to a zone or hot water tank at the end of a cycle without overheating. This returns the boiler to cold standby with no standby jacket or draft regulator losses. The mass of almost all other boilers would overheat with this type of control, and cast iron might not take the extreme temperature swings.
Based on recent testing a BNL, it looks as though the 83% is even conservative. System 2000 with 87% AFUE had the highest tested seasonal efficiency, surpassing a condensing oil boiler rated with 93% AFUE.
The low mass, well constructed and insulated boiler with system control designed around the boiler characteristics with energy recovery (System 2000) really does work and outperforms all others.
0 -
Dojo
Is a house of an honored master, a place to practice meditation and mastery of certain arts (usually martial). Dodo, on the other hand....
Love you too.
Brad0 -
Not that bad
What makes your post jump off the screen at me is when the service manager said " It's not that bad "
That would make my radar light up !!!I would get a quote from a couple of heating contractors besides your fuel supplier.
A very disturbing trend I am seeing in the Western part of NH is the service tech walks in and if your boiler is not new , tells you the boiler needs to be replaced . What he doesn't tell you , he gets a commission on every lead that produces a sale.
One heating contractor started doing this about five years ago and sold so many boilers that a number of contractors are doing it now..
That is not to say every boiler does not need replacing .
And that all service techs are doing this.
Just make sure the replacement is warranted.
Nobody wants to replace something that may have a 100 year payback
Dave in NH0 -
As far
as that goes, I don't allow any medications on my jobs and as for Marriageable Arts, my God man, I'll have a harassment suit on me like that.
Lets clean this whole thing up and get back on track.
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Ken
> not what makes it "special." It's the control
> someone makes for you.
>
> The manner with which
> you and a few others write and respond so
> positively about the EK products, while
> attempting to sound like contractors - in reality
> sound more like folks who in fact have a stake in
> the company?
>
> There's nothing wrong with that.
> But it is essential we understand you are not one
> of us, speaking candidly about field experiences,
> but rather someone who has a financial stake in
> promoting this product - and with a bias that is
> more self-serving than objective.
>
> I just
> wanted to make that clear - if in fact I am
> correct.
>
> Lord knows, I have been wrong more
> than a few times. Sadly, I suspect I am not this
> time.
0 -
Ken
Basically the whole system is special. The boiler was designed and is made by us, the manager was designed by and made for us. The rest of the system uses standard, off the shelf parts, circs, burners, aquastats, etc.
I have been in the service and installation business for more years than EK has been in existence and sold and installed System 2000 before I went to work directly for them. I've installed and serviced other "high tech" equipment over the years that never made the cut but EK is truly different and continually growing in volume and expansion of its product line.
Am I one of you? Depends on how you look at it. I'm not an engineer or sales person who is spouting the company line for an over rated piece of equipment because that's what I'm paid to do. I am at heart, by training and by experience a NORA certified oil burner technician who just happens to work for a premier heating equipment manufacturer. I don't have any issue with those have prefer other makes, just with those who give false information as fact, whether it's EK or any other manufacturer.0
This discussion has been closed.
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