Your solar voice is needed (GrandPAH)

I am 100% behing the cause PAH................

Has Bush actually done something Good?

Wow!... what a concept....this IS THE FIRST HURDLE WE MUST OVERCOME, DAVE. Mad Dog!.....

Mark

you may find this chart useful.
I'll try to do some math tomorrow and reply on your original thread.

But if an average American house uses 20 gallons per person x 4, lets assume
all 80 gals. of that is hot water, then a 30 tube evacuated tube collector in Albany, NY producing almost close to 40,000 btus per day, can still save 30-40% in DHW production costs. I think there is a quick payback, especially with the tax credits.
I did not do the math yet, just looking at chart.
And why don't you think 3/4" can move 30,000 btu's?

BTW , if I can I'll try to see you and Darin, and all @ BUNY 4/20.

http://www.thermotechs.com/Albany_NY.htm

little known

Bush pushed his home state of Texas to be a leader in wind energy generation. The White House has both DHW and PV solar.

If you look, there's good in almost everyone.

My solar system was harvesting an average of 30,000 Btu's per sunny day during the worst part of the solar-year. My inlet cold water temps were averaging 45F and my indirect boiler-fed second-in-line tank is maintained at 145F. So..... my solar-fed first-in-line tank, 120-gallons, was seeing a 30F rise (120 x 8.33 = 999.6 Lbs 999.6 x 30 = 29,988 btu's). Assuming my boiler runs at 90% efficiency during a domestic call, that gets me a net Btu input of 945 Btu's per cubic foot of gas (1,050 Btu's per CF here). If I drop out my solar tank and feed the indirect 45F water, I have a delta-T of 145 - 45 = 100 & 100 x 8.33 = 833 Btu's required per gallon. If, on the other hand, I feed my indirect 75F water the DT is 70 and reaching my target temp will take 583.1 Btu's per gallon. I see a direct correlation to savings.

With just the two of us at home, we'll see a rise-n-fall each day depending on our use of hot water. We've hit a high of 160F and a low of 80F in the solar tank without any attempts to moderate or alter our DHW usage. When Mike comes home from college, I'll see a dramatic drop as he still lingers in the shower. One thing is certain, I am much more keenly aware of the impact we have on energy usage than I ever was previously.

Ours is a Viessmann 30-tube array with a Bradford White 120-G indirect for storage. I'm not satisfied with the HX rate and will be playing this summer(G). I think that's an area where there's lots of room for improvement, but I could be wrong.

The issue of losing power and going to steam was handled without using PV, although PV is most definately in our near future. I'll be adding more DHW solar too and I'm working on a low-power-consumption load-shifting strategy to compensate for summer's peak harvresting capabilities. By next winter, when the sun's angle is at its worst solar-harvesting angles for our latitude, I intend to have my solar array capabilities on par with our average daily usage and include a buffer to carry us over those cloudy days.

I'm not so much concerned about payback as I am about becomming independent of those who would like nothing better than to see us dead. The global warming issues and Hubbert's Peak can be argued until everyone is blue in the face: I'm moving myself and my family forward towards energy independence. It's a long march, but looking back, I've been on tougher marches. Lead, follow, or get out of the way!

The solar industry does not much like government incentives. They remember all too clearly what happened the day RR, with the stroke of a pen, yanked the rug out from under their feet. Oil was dirst cheap and the White House DHW solar array was dismantled for roof repairs. The costs to reassemble the solar array far exceeded the energy harvest and it was scrapped. Solar had been thriving on the subsidies, but they were given too freely with almost no oversight and there were far too many shysters milking the system while bilking consumers. Dark days no one wants to see repeated. ASES and others are striving to establish minimum guidelines for system performance and compliance. They too are on a long march and they've been at it for decades. The government incentives they've requested we voice our opinions about are something they've approached with a great deal of care and concern.

No need to participate unless you feel solar is the right way to approach utilization of the best source of renewable energy we've got today.

I've got more money tied up in ten-year wheeled tons of steel sitting in my driveway than I'll ever tie up in solar that will last for some 30 years, or longer. If I add the life-cycle costs of the vehicles over the same time-frame, solar looks pretty inexpensive.

Came out wrong


I am not angry, sorry if it came off that way.

I guess I was just disappointed when the solar installer told me what he expected on a good day.

I just can't believe that the panels can't be made better.

Perhaps if there was more demand?

Mark H

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I have


an excellent southern exposure for the rear of my home.

As I said, I have been considering putting up some panels.

I will look into the evac tubes.

I would really LOVE to see solar help reduce this country's import of foriegn fuels.

Mark H

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Mark

I'm thinking of going to Warwick, RI for a Viessman solar class.
Want to make a trip out of it?
I too want to put some evacuated tubes on my house, and the wife finally
got the message after my subliminal hints to her.

Thanks for the math Dave. I'm glad it's working well for you. For space heating I don't think the numbers are there, but for DHW , any amount of collectors is well worth the investment.

excellent class at Viessmann

and Jimmy Mac is one of the best when it comes to teaching.

I'm sticking with evac tubes so that I can incorporate storage for my radiant heating system. I have a spot just right for parking some large tanks and that's part of my load-shifting strategy. It'll grow as the array grows and that will be the buffer's buffer(G) for DHW too.

If I use SIPs to surround the tank farm, I don't see a need for any super-insulated tanks. It's the temperature that's limiting my choices!

Thermal storage

I just heard about a project in Colorado. I don't have any specifics, but I can give you the theory and say that they've had some promising results. The idea is to store a massive amount of heat gathered in the summer, and actually have it for use in the winter. Think of a storage bank in the ground . . . say the size of a geothermal ground-source loop. If the soil type is right and the water table isn't too high, it seems a lot of btu's could be stashed for later use. The earth makes a great insulator. I don't think too much heat would get away if you dug down deep enough.

I was waiting to hear about some updates from Dave. Nothing wrong with eliminating profit margins for the dictators and royalty in the Middle East, keep it here!!!

I am also planning on a home installation. Unfortunately the front of the house faces south, will have to find a spot somewhere though!

I like the idea of Hot water/PV panel in one, maybe Viessmann will do the same one day? Who knows! I would love to get into the solar business, does anyone have info on dhw kits that I can start to market?

Dave, can we see pics of your system?

Cosmo

keyspan?

Bob, I just surfed around the Keyspan site and couldn't find the incentive program. Got any info? An additional $1500 would put me very close to pressing "go!"

Thanks

Newsworthy Dave?

Dave:

Is there some way I can approach the solar topic from an HVAC contractor's point of view? In other words, is there money to be made for an HVAC contractor to install and service solar and solar-related equipment?

Money? Are we supposed to be making money?!?

Here n I thought we was woikin for the love of the woik itself(G).

Depends John. The solar biz has some issues with how to figure overhead and establish correct rates - just like the other trades. Green energy doesn't need to be a pauper's sport and you don't have to be Daddy Warbucks to afford solar.

There's still far too many Rube Goldbergs and too much "assembling" of components without any benchmarks for the completed assembly's system-wide performance - just like hydronics! Once again, the consumer has no real way to gauge the real-deal unless the system was tested independently. Viessmann and Schuco are two who have put together the whole package and have documented proof of system-wide performance.

Consumers are faced with 90+ mod-cons, yet no total package performance numbers. Same with solar components if you pick up a copy of Home Power or Solar Today or check the net. Speaking of which, there's many a pirate ship afloat on the net, if ye get me drift matey.

Consumer's don't realise, or value perhaps, the vast storehouse of knowledge we bring to the mix.

Not to jump ship, but check out this note I got asking me for help that, I think, illustrates what I'm trying to convey:

Dear Dave,

Saw your column on Contractor's web site and wondered if you might be able help with advice.

Back in December, we ordered counter tops, sink, faucet and sink baskets all from XXX here in XXX. We worked with a very nice consultant from that store (XXX), who has tried to be helpful throughout.

We installed the counters in mid-January, and intended to install the sink at the same time, but when we opened the sink box from XXX, the sink was broken in half between the two bowls.

XXX reordered the sink, and with prodding from us, finally got the sink three weeks later. Our carpenter/plumber (XXX), from XXX, XXX miles away, came back for the installation. Upon inspection, the sink was warped, so that if you laid it on a flat surface, one corner was about ¼” higher than the others. We proceeded anyway, what with having washed dishes for a month in the laundry room, and thinking that the sink could be pulled flush with the counter with the supplied mounting clips.

Then, after knocking out the hole for the single-hole faucet (11:00 PM by now), they discovered that the knockout (1 ¼”) was too small in diameter to receive the faucet assembly (1 5/16”). Three or four wasted files later, they got the hole big enough. They also had to file down an edge of the faucet under-sink mounting ring & washer, to make it fit between the faucet assembly and the side of the sink bowl. In addition, they had to cut a “notch” out of the counter top to make room for the faucet under-sink mounting bracket, bringing the edge of the counter top to within about ¼” of the outer lip of the sink (see labeled photo).

Then, when placing the sink in the counter top opening (1:00 AM), they discovered that the tinker-toy sink mounting brackets were bending, rather than pulling the sink flush with the counter top. We improvised some shims under the counter, to fix that (see photo).

They finally got everything in place, with a bead of silicone under the edge of the sink, and the sink pulled down as flush as possible with the counter. The warped corner was still elevated enough to slip a sheet or two of paper between the sink lip and the counter. Soon enough, we discovered that we had lots of water leaking into the under-sink cabinet area, from the imperfect seal between the sink and the counter.

To absolutely add the icing to the cake, the top-of-the-line sink baskets I ordered are very erratic about holding water in the sink. The slightest bump (frequent in a sink full of dishes) knocks the stopper loose.

With all that frustration, and a sense of insecurity about the long-term prospects for our sink, faucet and counter, we called XXX to request (1) consultation with the XXX Company, regarding the sink warpage and general dissatisfaction with the problems, (2) further explanation as to how, when we ordered everything from one place, we got in the situation of having a faucet that didn’t fit the sink and (3) some compensation for all the additional hours of installation time and expense.

XXX offered (then rescinded their offer) to reimburse us for the sink. XXX offered to compensate for extra installation hours. XXX added more silicone sealant around the outer edge of the sink. We requested a site visit from our XXX consultant, XXX.

Today, the XXX consultant called having leveraged an offer out of XXX. We can either accept a refund of the cost of the sink ($522) and $120 compensation for the extra labor, or they will get us a new sink and pay $240, to cover past extra installation costs, and to cover new installation costs. We are inclined to accept the first offer, and not have to deal with another installation. It seems to me that if we put in another sink, we will have to either go through all the faucet modifications again, or get another faucet.

Questions:

1. Why were the sink and faucet not compatible? Is this something the supplier should be responsible for? XXX says this is entirely up to the plumber who is hired to do the installation, and there are frequent incompatibilities. Additionally, I looked at the specs available in my catalogs for the sink and faucet, and also looked on line. Nowhere, except in the template that is packaged with the sink, could I find reference to the size of the knockout.

2. Will the modifications that we made to the sink and faucet be likely to cause us any long-term problems down the road a few years?

3. Do you have any recommendations for sink baskets? The XXX consultant says that XXX has been difficult to work with, and XXX will refund our money, but we should get new baskets elsewhere.

4. Do you have any wise words of advice as to what we should have done to avoid all these problems? This was partially a do-it-yourself project, but we had competent help, and feel that, what with ordering everything from one place, should not have run into all these problems.

panels can be placed anywhere, Cosmo

on vertical walls, on a rack in the yard.

In some cases a panel on both east and west exposures and use a dual sensor control to toggle back and forth.

I have one panel on my house that faces due north and it still plucks some energy, even mid winter.

I'll be doing an 8 panel yard mounted array later this week, with a 800 gallon underground storage. I'll bring pics.

hot rod

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thanks

Thanks Bob. Anxious to see what they're offering.

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