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Tigerloop

Dirk Wright
Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
I'm digging up the top of the tank now. Wouldn't you know it, but it was not in the place I expected it. There's something like 14 feet of underground vent line for the tank! So strange. The tank is about that distance from the back of the house. I'm thinking of having the tank replaced with a new UST closer to the house and replacing the line with that plastic covered stuff.

I will have to get a push-pull pump to make sure the line is clear, thanks for the tip. There are at least five 90 degree turns in this line as it winds it's way from the tank to the burner, not counting all the do-dads around the filter and the Tigerloop. I read that Tiger does not recommend over size fuel line because of air bubbles. Maybe I should stick with 3/8"?

I just checked the Tigerloop this morning, and the foam comes and goes. I'm guessing but I think that the Tigerloop has a float and a needle valve in it such that it opens and closes depending on the rate of fuel usage. The reason I say this is because the Tigerloop would be clear for a while then a cloud of bubbles would appear in the fuel and possibly become froth, then there would be none. I think that these clouds of bubbles show up when the needle valve opens and the fuel is drawn through the line.

The vacuum gauges on the Garber filters were showing 4 inches this morning, and stayed that high after the pump shut off, which I find strange and I presume it's because of some check valve that **** Charland mentioned. That's why I'm digging down to the tank, to investigate the existance of this check valve and possibly replace the whole pickup assembly with a Oventrop floating pickup. Fortunately, the tank isn't very deep, a little over a foot or so below grade.

Comments

  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
    tigerloop foam

    I installed a Tigerloop a month ago on my forced air furnace, yet I still have some foam in there after making sure there were no leaks in the tubing and fittings. The foam comes and goes during operation. The pump is noisy when there is a 1 inch head of foam in there, but goes back to being quiet when it goes away. I suppose I should go out to the UST and disconnect the line and do a vacuum test, since I only tested from the pump to the shutoff valve. I pulled over 25" on that section and it took almost a half an hour for the vacuum to return to 5", so that section is good. I was wondering though if a fairly long tubing run would cause cavitation and thus foaming of the fuel? I have a UST in the backyard and the tubing run to the furnace is approximately 35 feet. It's all 3/8" copper. Do I need a 2 stage pump with this long run? I guess I should ask Suntec about this too. I'm also thinking I should get rid of the UST and get a Roth in the basement nearer the furnace. Any ideas?

    Oh, I should add the while the pump is running, the vacuum gauge on the Garber reads 3-5", but what I find somewhat strange is that after the furnace shuts off, the vacuum reading remains there for several minutes. Shouldn't it fall immediately after the furnace shuts off and the pump of course stops drawing fuel?
  • thp_8
    thp_8 Member Posts: 122
    2 pipe it

    and be done with it.
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
    It was a two pipe system

    I converted it from a two pipe to a single pipe. It would be extremely difficult to go back. Thanks anyway.
  • thp_8
    thp_8 Member Posts: 122
    The tiger loop

    Is not going to fix your problem if you had it with a 2 pipe.
  • Dick Charland
    Dick Charland Member Posts: 178
    How old is line/tank?

    Based on your observations with the gauge, you may have an old foot(check) valve on the supply line inside the tank. It is not really needed and over the years it can hang up and give you vacuum issues along with an old oil line which becomes restricted. The 3-5 " sounds a little high for total equivalent length etc. I would not recommend going back to 2 pipe at all, for two reasons, 1. environmental concern with return lines leaking etc. etc. etc.; 2. when a pump is connected 2 pipe it will try to move its gear set pumping capacity. Instead of moving the actual firing rate of say e.g. .75 gph based on the nozzle size, it will try to move the pumps capacity 16 gph plus depending on pump, the end result being a much higher vacuum reading. Look at removing UGT and going above ground.
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142


    I do not know if this was a problem before I installed the Tigerloop. I did not test it before I took it apart. The original system is: tank-> 35 ft copper line-> shutoff v.-> General filter-> short copper line-> pump -> short copper line-> shutoff v.-> 35 more feet of copper line -> tank.

    The new system is: tank-> 35 ft line-> firomatic -> brass "T" -> short line -> shutoff v. -> Garber filter -> OSV -> short line -> firomatic -> Tigerloop -> 2 flex lines -> pump.

    I did a vacuum test on the system between the shutoff v. and the pump and it tested good. I need a hand pump to test the long line to the tank. Visual inspection shows no leaks in that line. The only other thing I did was to use the old return line as the new supply line. I don't know if that causes this problem, but I do recall a black film on the inside of the tubing. I have added some Fuel Right to hopefull slowly remove it.

    I just checked on the Suntec website, and they state that good practice for my "A" pump is to have no more than 6" of vacuum while running. The gauge at the filter reads 3-5", but I have not tested it at the pump, but I assume it's about the same as at the filter? I need to get a gauge to test it at the pump.

    thanks again for your help.
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142


    thanks **** for your kind suggestions. I am considering replacing the UST with a AGT in the basement nearer the furnace. I don't think the long line is helping at all.

    The copper lines are 35 years old. I do not know the age of the tank, but I presume it was replaced at least once. I dug down to it a while back and the paint on the outside looked really good, no outside surface rust, though I know of course these things fail from within. Recent putty test on the tank revealed no water, so it appears to be good.

    I will have to dig down to the tank and figure out if there is some kind of check valve at the tank. Since I used the return line as the new supply line, do you think there is something in the return line that is causing this problem?

    thanks again for your help.
  • Dirk, very simple?

    If you are getting foam. Air is getting into system somewhere. Could be bad fitting or line. Could even be because you are now using old return line, which isn't as low in tank as old supply line was. You stated that you dug down to tank , if so and replacement of tank can't be done at least replace oil supply line with approved oil line for earth contact and new flare fittings.Hope this helps!
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142


    wow, replace 35 feet of line? I think I want to dig up around where the line enters the tank and see what's there first. I'm thinking I should also blow out the line just to make sure it's clear. I did inspect where the copper line goes through the concrete block wall. The copper there is dark but does not look like it leaks or anything. I know current practice is to not have copper in direct contact with concrete, that they use plastic covered line now. But, that's a ton of work to replace all that line!

    I also have an Oventrop floating pickup for the tank that I could install at the same time I dig. First, I have to fix a small roof leak of course! so many things to do! thanks for your help!
  • But, that's a ton of work to replace all that line!

    Don't you hate it when people won't tell you what you want to hear! P.S. not a very good ideal to blow out any lines even when you can see them, never mine underground. Use a push/pull pump.Also use 1/2" oil line when you do the replacement, due to long run. Good luck with the digging.
  • Patrick Powers_2
    Patrick Powers_2 Member Posts: 10
    Tigerloop

    How old is the Garber? Was the Garber running for any amount of time with the two-pipe system that you had?
  • Mellow_2
    Mellow_2 Member Posts: 204
    Try leak checking

    If you dig to the top of the tank, blow out the line from the tank to the house...... Then put a test on just that line, vac or psi.... if it holds you know it is clean and not leaking....... after that.... I would replace the line in to the tank with a new line and fittings.... the foam is from a leak OR high vaccumme........ because the tigerloop moves only the oil it burns (from tank to loop) the vac takes longer to show before the loop...... also try bleeding the pump... by opening the bleeder you will move alot of oil from the tank to the loop...getting the air out fast and seeing how much vac you have with a full draw..... some burners have such a small firing rate the air can stay in the oil line for a month or so.....good luck

    7" vac or higher can cause foam or cavitation
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
    Garber

    The Garber filter is less than one month old. I installed it in September, but we didn't use the furnace until October. Thanks for your help.
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
    The tank

    Thanks Mellow for you help! Today, I replaced the tank pickup with an Oventrop floating pickup. While the line was disconnected, I got a bicycle pump and pumped air from the house out to the tank area. There was substantial resistance in the line, and nasty black oil came out by the tank. After I installed the Oventrop, I went inside and hooked up a vacuum pump and pulled 20" Hg and more nasty black fuel came out. The Oventrop has a check valve in it, so the overhead line should stay primed. I ran the furnace and the Tigerloop had a some bubbles in it at first and then they completely went away. The gauge on the Garber was sitting at about 2" Hg. I think it is clear that my line was not holding the prime, since when I went to disconnect the fitting near the furnace, no fuel came out. I hope it keeps the prime now. So, I hope I fixed this thing, thanks to all the help here.
  • Patrick Powers_3
    Patrick Powers_3 Member Posts: 1
    Tigerloop

    Does you boiler run for domestic hot water? The reason why I ask is because I recently did a new system start up on a boiler installed by others. It also had an underground tank they installed the new boiler with a two pipe configuration connecting to existing lines. Before I even went there I recommended a tigerloop(they are great) and disconnect the return line. They did such a nice job on the oil lines which was connected to the original oil lines that they wanted to leave it two pipe. Against my better judgement we left them. Nothing but flame outs every day for the first three or four days. I installed the tigerloop and the vacuum went down on the gauge I installed on the Garber. Ran great for four days straight and then flamed out. There was alot of foam in the tigerloop, but the gauge on the Garber still read low, I installed a new gauge (just in case) and replaced the garber filter the crud that came out was incredible. When you are using a two pipe system you are filtering alot more than you are using (even if you are running just for hot water). We probably filtered the tank a couple times over. This system only ran for a couple days with the two-pipes and the filter was plugged. Try not to over engineer, check the obvious and then move on. Don't take a chance with the two pipe system. The tigerloop has all the benefits of the two pipe sytem. Also there is a screen in the inlet port of the tigerloop. Another thing to check.

    P.S. We originally could not get the system to prime suspected everything, but the simple. Stuck foot valve, plugged line from sitting not in use, leak on the suction side. Turns out it was a new flare nut was not tightened. Take your time and think. It might be simple. First chance you get upgrade that tank. GOOD LUCK
  • Dirk Wright
    Dirk Wright Member Posts: 142
    no boiler, just a furnace

    Thanks Patrick for your ideas. I have a forced air furnace and a Toyotomi water heater running off of the same supply line. I have a "T" in the line. Each leg of the "T" leads to a shutoff valve, a Garber filter, and an OSV for the furnace leg and a check valve for the water heater leg. The water heater leg has a Toyotomi lifter pump, which is basically a submersible pump with a float switch. I did it this way because the water heater runs all year, and the furnace does not. The OSV and the check valve prevent backflow when one appliance is drawing fuel and the other is not.

    I checked again this morning while the furnace was running, and no foam was present, only a few bubbles. Looks like it's fixed!
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