Air elimination, which one?

John McArthur_2

It has been my experience in dozens of installs that the spirovent out performs the air scoop. Much better air elimination. JMHO

adambuild

Air elimination, which one?

Any reason to use a Spirovent or like model instead of air scoop type? What's your preference and why?!

ed wallace

spirovent vs air scoop

spirovent 6 inches from elbow vs air scoop needs 18 inches

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Boilerpro_3

my favorite

is the B&G IAS, much better than scoops,about the same price.

Boilerpro

adambuild

B&G

Boilerpro, would you believe that the B&G site says that the IAS is discontinued!?

[Deleted User]

Test results and experience...

I had the opportunity to work with some of Americas brightest minds on the Entran 2 failure case. One of their tests was to prove or disprove the functionality of a conventional air scoop versus mibrobubble resorbers. What they found was that the MBR did a FASTER initial job of removing free oxygen (air), and that within 24 hours of continuous circulation that both systems ended up at the same point as it pertains to free air. In other words, the scoop works just fine.

They also found, that unless you're dealing with a continuous circulation system (24/7/365) that when the MBR shuts off, mother nature allows the air content inside the pipes to equal whats outside the pipes. Remember, they were testing Entran 2, a non 02 barrier product.

My personal experience has been that a conventional air scoop, when applied properly (expansion tank connected to the air seperator, and the circulator pumping away from that point) works like a champ at a fraction of the cost.

And no offense to anyone, but I can think of maybe 2 or 3 jobs where I had enough space for the requisite (alledgedly) 18" of straight pipe, and they didn't work any better than ones where I didn't have 18" in front of the seperator. Remember, most hydronic heating systems rarely run at their full out capacity, which is when 18" would be required before the seperator. In most residential systems, the flow is much less than the scoop is designed for, and it works just fine without the straigt pipe before it. I'm sure there are experiences contrary to mine, and I'd be more than glad to discuss them.

Again, in my own home, I have an MBR that was given to me by a supplier, and I had a bubble working its way through my system for over a year. I eventually ended up having to treat my system water with liquid soap (dish washing detergent, Dawn I think) in order to get the bubble out, So much for the effectiveness of MBR air elimination...

ME

Boilerpro_3

I believe it is the IAS 400 now

However, it doesn't have the nice 3/4 inch tapping on top. I bought 40 to 50 of the older models last year to have for future. I do not install my diapharam tanks off the bottom of the air separator..it is a sure fire way to early failure when dirt collects on the top of the tank. Everything comes off the top.

Boilerpro

Al Corelli

NO WAY!!

I love those air eliminators!

Boilerpro_3

Call B&G and complain

They took one of the best air separtors around and made it just like all the rest.

Boilerpro

thp_8

OOOHHHH Mark

You just made a lot of sales persons unhappy. I'll stop here. I don't want to get started on the microbubblers.

[Deleted User]

You can't make all the people happy all the time...

Trust me, I'm NOT on Spirovents A list when it comes time to party...I'm also not in the business of making sales people happy. Watch what happens when I release the data regarding below slab insulation materials test. THere's going to be a LOT of unhappy sales people.

The MBR was introduced originally to address a problem, air in systems, that was actually solved by the owner of this web site. Pumping Away was the best solution to air in suspension in older systems. THe makers of the MBR saw an opportunity and seized upon it. THey continue to make excellent products, and they have their following. So do the conventional air scoop manufacturers. I'm on thier side of the fence...

WHy pay 100$ for something that can be done for 1/10 the price???

JMPO

ME

subcooler

Velocity

and a few other factors are key in air removal. Pumping away is nice but not as big of factor as velocity and the make-up of the materials used in the system. IE: the effects of water quality. I like Dan H. but he did not invent pumping away. P.S. And for the dish soap thats a water quality issue.

Big Ed

I Agree with Mark

I always used the Taco air scoop and have to admit, been using less then a 18" approach.It may take a few more passes and once all the air is out ,the scoop will just sit there anyways....The air scoop works just fine and you save a $100 to boot... I agree with Mark's findings...

hr

But with MBS

you can get sweat versions, and also vertical style Plus most are bress for those non barrier, or questionable barrier systems.

I've found MBR's do a better job with problem air elimination. Primary secondary with injection mixing crossovers are a good example where a scoop may be good on the boiler loop, but a small MBR may be better on the tubing side since the miles of tube contain a lot of little bubbles at lower temperatures to give it up.

Personal choice really, I like both.

Watts is addressing an interesting concept with this bronze scoop style that can be vertical mount of horizontal.

hot rod

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terry_5

Air elimination

I swear by Spirovent!Solved alot of headaches for me

Ted_9

air eliminators

I can add anything to this conversation regarding air problems.

But, those micro-bubble absorbers sure look better. And at the end of the day, I want my job to function very well and look good too. Scoops just look like junk. My opinion.

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[Deleted User]

Funny... I like Dan too...

and I went back through my posts and didn't see any where that I said he had invented pumping away. He didn't invent it, he just capitolized on it. Can't blame a person for being business smart.

As for water quality, I'd have to disagree with you on that principle. I washed the system initially with TSP, rinsed with clear water (Denver water, some of the finest in the West), and the bubble would not trap. We're talking a one pipe system here, so 100% of the water goes through the MBR. THe liquid detergent acts as a surfactant.

Let me guess, you make a livng by selling MBR's, right? :-)

To each is own.

ME

Unknown

What about using

the good ol' air elimination tapping in the boiler itself ? One issue I agree wholehearterdly with Ken Secor is that the boiler block is the best place to rid the air . That is , if the boiler comes with a tapping for it .......

We've been using the B+G EAS Jr. , works real good but pricy . I used a Taco Vortec today , I'll let you know how it works out when we finish .

thp_8

No not quite

we specialize in re-engineering systems after the 1 year warranty is up, the owners are in court with the engineering firm, the tenants of the buildings are leaving and the building owner is ready to do just about anything to get the system running right. Thats my kind of typical job. P.S. adding soap is still a water quality issue.

[Deleted User]

My bad...

That's what I get for making assumptions... My humblest appologies.

We too make a decent living consulting engineers and owners. A few of the engineers are wising up and coming to us BEFORE they start the project for consultation. It sure avoids a lot of problems before they become legal.

As soon as someone mentions litigation, my hourly rate jumps to as much money as the attornies charging. I call it "pricing disincentive". It still doesn't work. They still hire me:-(

I'd much rather not be involved on that end of things.

So, what would you do differently with our water to make the MBR work better? 7.6 pH, low TDS,... Add dish detergent before we filler up? :-)

ME

ishmael2k

Two better than one? Or at least not worse?

I am installing a W-M CGa that came with a Taco Vortec, once the install is complete and I verify that this boiler will heat my house I will be dismantling my old AS and will have an almost new Spirovent to use.

Is there any reason I can't install it on my W-M's air elimination tapping and use both?

Don't really care if it is overkill as long as it isn't going to be a problem.

Big Ed

Boiler Tap

I would use the boiler vent tap on a Peerless ,sure....But you need a added device on Buderus G115..


What about the new Burnham 3 pass boiler Ron? Like them? The price? Many going in?

Big Ed

No Problems

just a added device that could leak which is not a big deal.Just close the cap if it does.