My new buderus, Where are the savings?

eric_26

Thamks for all the advise. It was all helpful---Eric

eric_26

Buderus=savings????

I replace my "SLANT Fin" L-30 in november. I did the load calc. on my home and it called for 55,000Btu's for the house. I replaced it with a "Buderus" G115-21 oil fired boiler with a logamatic control and indirect water tank. I have it running at 86.5% eff. My old boiler ran at 81.5% eff. My logamatic is set-up to the right heating curve and parameters for my home and system. My fuel consumption in the past 5 months has been = to the amount i used for the whole year last year. Has anyone else experienced this?

Rodney Summers

i may know your problem
do you have the bfu room sensor or are you just running the 2107?

also what do you heat with baseboard hydro air or panel? if you give me your phone number i can call you and look at a few things with you. :-) and give you some good tips

thanks
Jason

eric_26

i am heating with baseboard. i have a 3 zone system, zoned with zone valves. Eric

Rodney Summers

can you call me eric or give me your phone number?
if you have msn im jason0438(at)hotmail.com

eric_26

Whats your #--Eric

Rodney Summers

Rodney Summers

nice talking to you tonight on the phone hope everything works now.

get back to me and let me know how it all is

thanks

Steamhead (in transit)

Another thing to look at

how many degree-days were there last season? How many have you had so far this season? Was the Slant/Fin also heating your domestic water?

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Bill Nye_2

Zone valves

Zone valves there is your problem. Get rid of the t-stats and zone valves and let the outdoor reset and the controller work.

If you insist on using the room t-stats and zone valves set them for 73° and then set the 2107 so the room never reaches 73°. It will work like a high limit. You want constant circulation or near constant.

I doubled the size of my house and cut my fuel consumption by more than half of what the previous owner used. Doors , windows , and insulation may have been a big factor but I replaced the heating system with a Viessmann which is very similar to your Buderus with a very similar control.

I have no t-stat, I solely rely on the outdoor reset control. Next year I may hook up the indoor sensor. You may want to try the BFU that Jason has, it may help you too.

ScottMP

Steamhead

That was my question also .... what made the domestic before ?

Scott

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Rodney Summers

hi bill i told him the exact same thing last night over the phone to keep the zv always open. and if he did not want to get the bfu right away to lower his ref temp from 170 and try 150 to start and keep going down from there.
im running at 142ref on baseboards with no problems

also told him to set the offset from 9 to 0. and not to do deep setbacks.

also made sure his dhw tank was piped in 1 inch for faster recovery.

i talked him into the bfu room sensor also and he will be getting it today.

thanks
Jason

Rich_29

Bill thanks for your observations I wish Rooster Boy had been as shareing and not conduct his own private forum,

That said I have some recollection of an earlier thread that claimed when you had more than one zone you had to choose the most used zone for constant circulation and put zone valves on the other zones.

please anyone clarify this for me as i am about to modify my similar system to ODR with constant circulation

Thanks for all your help

Brendan

Ron Schroeder

ODR and multiple zones

"I have some recollection of an earlier thread that claimed when you had more than one zone you had to choose the most used zone for constant circulation and put zone valves on the other zones.

please anyone clarify this for me as i am about to modify my similar system to ODR with constant circulation

Thanks for all your help

Brendan"

Hi Brendan,

That's true with multiple zones and ODR. I have 15 zones and outdoor reset. The hardest part was finding the zone that had the most run time. (hint** look for the hottest room with all of the zone valves open)

If you have one, the BFU should be in the room with the longest run time.

Actually, I don't run constant circulation anymore. I selected the reset curve to give about 80% run time on the longest running zone.

Ron

Brad White_9

I see nothing wrong with off-line forums

Not that Jason (AKA Roosterboy) needs defending, but sometimes off-line forums help to settle details and spare the process until some conclusions are reached. Keeps things of general interest moving along. Sometimes some aspects are not published for personal reasons, who knows. I leave that between the participants.

JMHO,

Respectfully,

Brad

Dave Yates (PAH)

same here!

Like minds............

We run into similar questions often enough that I'd think an enterprising manufacturer of computer driven technology would design a program set to utilize local weather data so folks like us could look like a wizzard when querried by customers about their fuel bills! Natch, it would need to incorporate fuel costs since we saw a 57% increase this winter - man, did that ever get folks motivated towards hi-eff equipment(G).

Siggy?

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Ron Schroeder

Hi Eric,

How are you measuring your fuel usage?

Ron

Ron Schroeder

Hi Brad and Brendan,

This thread is about Erics Buderus, not Jasons Buderus anyway. But he had a similar problem that sometimes can be confered over the phone quicker and results posted later.

Ron

Rich_29

Ron: Thanks for your earlier reply and your efforts as the peacemaker, I stand corrected by Brad (a man I hold in the highest esteem)and my apologies to Jason too, But all I'm guilty of is trying to glean as much info about topic that is sooo important to me

Peace to all

Brendan

Brad White_9

Thank you Brendan and Ron

Nicely said and handled. Handshakes and hugs all around.

And thanks for your kind words, Brendan. I am humbled.

All good.

Best,

Brad

Joe@buderus_2

What about calling Buderus tech support!! There are different adjustments that can be done to the heating curve to adapt it to each installation. Some contractors set "generic" settings which may run a higher curve than needed to insure system satisfaction.

NOTE: The "OFFSET" setting is used to help adjust the bottom end of the curve (lowest temperature). A setting of "9" can raise the bottom end of the heating curve, calling for a much higher system temperature than needed on mild outdoor temperatures. We can be reached at 1-800-283-3787, Monday thru Friday, 8am to 5pm Eastern time.

S Ebels

Reference temperature?

What is the reference temp set at on the 2107? It's under the "circuit 1" setting on your control. I have found that 9 out of 10 times the ref temp can be adjusted lower than the factory setting of 167*. Most of the systems I have out in the field wind up at 150 or less. Also, you didn't mention if your old boiler made the domestic hot water for your home. That could make a substantial difference in fuel consumption depending on how many people are living in the house.

eric_26

where i stand now.

Today ,after talking to my local supplier, He kind of shot down the idea of losing all my zones and running off of one room sensor. He said unless you know for a fact that every piece of baseboard is sized perfect for the room, I will end up with hot or cold spots. I think one of my biggest problems were that i was setting my t-stats back at night. What i'm doing now is i set all my zones to 69 deg., and lowered my ref. temp. to 150deg. We'll see what happens.
Eric

Rodney Summers

eric can you call me again tonight id like to speak with you

eric_26

Ron,
I have a report from my fuel company which gives me delivered gallons,looking at my totals for the year prior,I'am the same in the past 5 months than i was for all of last year. Also, My old slantfin did do my DHW.I'am going to find out the difference between the degree days from last year to this year.


Eric

eric_26

I'am actually on my way out now.
Eric

Rodney Summers

call me when you get back
thanks

Bill Nye_2

Eric

It takes a little time and a little experimentation to find that "sweet spot". The setting that satisfies comfort and economy most of the time.

I usually start by taking an educated guess at the curve and turning things down a little at a time until I reach a point where the house is just a little too cool. Then I go the other way and inch it up until I find the just right spot for the majority of the heating season.

As it stands right now if it gets below 10° F outside for more than a day I must turn my parallel shift up a couple degrees or so until the frigid weather passes. You could do that with your room sensor.

There is so much forgiveness built into baseboard hotwater systems we can get away with quite a bit. You will only need the maximum amount of baseboard on the coldest day of the year or "design days". We only have them a maximum of 3-5 % of the season.

So where your contractor may be correct in theory, I say give it a try. What have you got to lose? Do not remove your t-stat and zone valve, turn it up to 75° and set the boiler water so the room only reaches 68 or 70°.

All the zone valves and t-stats is an American thing, why do we do it ? Because we can, and so the people who make t-stats and zone valves can make money.

The only zone valve in my house is a telestat on the manifold. It controls the master bedroom zone because we like to keep it cooler than the rest of the house.

With constant circulation you can eliminate off cycle loss, expansion and contraction noises, temperature swings in the room, drafts, dust,etc. You will greatly improve the comfort because you are only replacing the heat lost to outside, not trying to recover from the off cycle.

As far as night or unoccupied setback goes, you continue to heat with constant circulation but only at a reduced water temperature. It makes sense to me, I just have a hard time selling it to someone who loves to control a thermostat.

Take Joe at Buderus up on his offer, call him. He is pretty good at what he does and knows his product. He has helped me out more than once.

Rodney Summers

very well put bill your right i did the same thing before i got my bfu room sensor now i don't have to play with the curve anymore :-) i leave it at ref-temp-142 and the bfu dose the rest. i keep my house at 72 all day 70 at night

thanks

Mark Hunt

Well Joe


"Tech support" would indicate that a "tech" should be calling, yes??

Is Buderus now giving instruction to anyone that calls?

Mark H



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Bill Nye_2

Mark,

To be blunt, yes , they have to. The home owners are often more intelligent or at least willing to listen to instruction.

It is embarassing, very unfortunate, but often true, that some contractors leave their customers with no heat. The home owner after exhausting all other avenues has no other recourse but to contact the tech support line.

What's he gonna do? leave them with no heat ? and a bad taste for the product? I ain't talking burner maintenance here, maybe just a little computer setting.

Do I think the contractor should do it ? Yes, but some can't or maybe won't.

None of my d#@n business, but Joe is on my list of good guys.

Mark Hunt

You are tops


in my book Bill and Joe is a diligent Buderus employee.

But Joe is ONE guy at a large company. There are other "tech support" people there that do not have Joe's experience. I had one tell me that "contractors do not test the boiler since they do not have the equipment" and that "The gas company will do it." HEHEH@ Well....the gas company doesn't.

No disrespect intended, but sitting in a room in New Hampshire is no "Ca rte Blanche" and there is no test to determine what the HO's ability is.

No, I believe that Joe's response was a REaction to a negative post about Buderus. He completely ignored the contractor and advised the HO to call Tech support. Tech support will set things right eh??? Sounds like throwing the contractor that chose Buderus under the bus. I have been seeing a trend here with the boize from Buderus.

Now I will pose a question to the hot shots at "tech support" @ Buderus.

If the ST-150 calls for heat and the pump happens to fail, how long will it be before the GB142 kicks out of domestic priority and resumes space heating?

Hey! Ya' never know. A smarter homeowner may call and ask this question boize!

Looking forward to the EM-10 control.

Maybe Tech support can tell us what it can do?

Mark H







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eric_26

Mark,
Why would you think i'am not a tech?
Eric

Jim Burke comfort zone

gb priority

Hey mark i am sure you know the gb will stay in priority .

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Ron Schroeder

Oops,

I meant: (hint***look for the COLDEST zone with all of the the zone valves open)

Ron

Ron Schroeder

Hi eric,

Last year's report might have started with a more full tank than this year. That's one of the problems with getting fuel 200 gallons at a time and using the delivered fuel as a figure of usage. An hour meter on the burner is more accurate but you can't install one on last years boiler.

With that said, you probably still can get more fuel savings by controls settings and making sure that the new boiler is tuned properly. The flame in a Buderus or any other boiler that doesn't use refractory looks different from a flame in a more conventional boiler so if it was adjusted "by eye" it could be very far off.

Ron

Canasta Pete_2

Joe@Buderus

Would you say that a GB142 is ideal for a Hydro-Air system? What would you tell a homeowner who called and asked that question after their system has been install by a Buderus Contractor?

What kind of labor allowance and legal help will Buderus offer to a Contractor who has a freeze-up from the priority being locked out due to circulator failure on DHW side?
Ol'Canasta

Ron Schroeder

"Today ,after talking to my local supplier, He kind of shot down the idea of losing all my zones and running off of one room sensor. He said unless you know for a fact that every piece of baseboard is sized perfect for the room, I will end up with hot or cold spots. "

Wow, as supplier that actually is giving good advice!!! What is this world comming to? ;-)


BTW, setting back your thermostats at night with ODR shouldn't increase fuel usage at all, it should decrease it. But...the setback recovery time could be long.

Ron

Rich_29

Ron

Thanks Ron for the thoughtfullness and respected advice

much appreciated Brendan.

Rich_29

Eric: I find it hard to believe that you would not be aware of the higher temps in your home burning so much extra fuel.

another area to consider did this extra oil pass through the nozzle of your burner at all, maybe you should be present when deliveries are made.This is not to say it is the MO of YOUR oil company,But it has happened in the past and could still exist.

Brendan

Dan_15

I called Buderus tech support a few times, and spoke to Joe on one occasion, directly after my new unit was installed. My contractor was great on installation, but knew absolutely nothing about the R2107. Joe helped me understand the proper heating curve, offset and room sensor settings for my particular setup. Right now I'm having some work done on bathrooms, and the plumbers and GC have no clue what the room sensor does. I'm glad that I learned about it from Joe, and that I am the most knowledgable about its settings because I am after all, the one living with it. Perhaps Buderus should require better contractor training in these high tech products--that would go a long way. Not every installer is as knowledgable as the folks here on the Wall. In any event, tech support is a good resource in my book.