toe kickers

eugene_2

I'm going to plug the fan in and see if it turns on.
the pipes were very hot, almost unbearable

eugene_2

kicker install

I have a Slant fin 8K BTU/hr that I want to install in the bathroom.
The pipe to the kicker is 1/2" and my hydronic lines are 3/4".
I don't want to add this to the existing loop and I don't want to run a whole new line to the basement from the 2nd floor. So I inserted 2x 3/4", 3/4" to 1/2" 'T' to one of the existing baseboard heaters in a bedroom. I the 2 T’s
Are about 6 inch apart, one to feed the kicker and the other to return. With a shut off valve to the kicker on the feed so that I can control the flow to the kicker.
Unfortunately the water does not seem to want to flow through the kicker even though it has filled up with water.
Any feedback from anyone

David Sutton_6

you need to install ..

Mono-flow tees in order to get the water to go where you want it to go...

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Brad White_9

I agree with David

The pressure differential is not great enough between the two basement tees to force the water up and through the heater. This is the LAST place you need a valve for flow control

If the PD is too high and you may be tempted to add two monoflow tees instead of one. Unfortunately, on 3/4", one such tee is the limit accoring to B&G. You may not get all the capacity you are paying for, but you should get most of it.

eugene_2

Thanks guys, how many mono flows do you think I should use.
One just on the return or one on return and feed?
Given the high cost of gas I’m tempted to just split the system. I’m just meeting the 67 linear footage
Adding this kicker in the same loop would put the system to 81. The system is working at its best right now, since I corrected the last "licensed" plumber's work, and I don't want to mess it up with this kicker. Splitting the system up into 2 zones of 40 linear feet I would imagine giving me a better output, considering I can get through some of the walls.

Brad White_9

I would split it before adding another Monoflow Tee

As stated in my first response, you are limited to one (1) monoflow tee when using the 3/4" main size. I would split it or connect it closer to the location across the pumps for greater differential. That last suggestion is really hacker work. Putting the heater on its own zone is essential if the rest of the house is on cast iron by the way.

eugene_2

I was hope to not only zone the kicker but the entire 2nd floor and drop it back to the boiler in a 1" copper.

eugene_2

by the way Brad, what do you mean by hacker work?

Jerry_15

Let me guess, you're running it off a 007 or similar. You need some good head (did I say that) to get some backpressure, especially if you're running monoflows, etc. Try a 0010, or a 14 cures all. These baseboard systems can suck up a lot of resistance when when you start adding stuff. Even the 14 won't add velocity noise. Grundfos has just come out with a cool 3 speeder that you can just dial in. Good luck

Brad White_9

Hacker Work- an imprecise term

but essentially punting, taking a short-cut to get the end result (heat in your kickspace heater) but neither following the rules of best trade practice.

I am guilty of such work such as restoring a tenant system to operation at 4 AM after a freeze. In the end, I left it there as it was (it worked) but the quality always bothered me. I could do better and it is now permanent.

Sorry for the confusion!

But to your other point, the idea of splitting off the entire second floor- always a good idea to zone the house like you live in it, day-night, dowstairs-upstairs. Good call, IMHO.

eugene_2

using 0011...

this was one off the corrections I made to the system that converted my heating bills from $550 (pre hurricane) to $220-260, this is including the price increase in natural gas... I yield a higher temperature output and lowered my gas bill to half (hoping to grab david's attention). I also replaced the undersized expansion tank. the "licensed" plumber who installed this crap is luck I was not around when he installed it ... anyways the 0011 is pretty balanced. works great.

Brad... thanks. there's a saying "a wise man learns from his mistakes, but a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others"
no offense... but I'm going to take your advice and just go ahead and zone the system. I just recalculated the current linear footage, it's at 80 already.
any advice while making this move? ... I've sort of become addicted to cutting my bills even further..

Brad White_9

Eugene

Are you zoning with control valves or circulators? Thinking the 011 may have enough flow to spare. Otherwise I would have to know what each zone has for BTUH requirements. Best I can do from here!

Jerry_15

The 0011 is a honker, and may give you some velocity noise on 3/4" pipe. I'd still recommend the 14. A #30 tank is usually plenty for these systems, but it doesn't have much to do with efficiency. Be sure you don't get a potable water tank (3/4" taps is the tip off) that is pre-charged to 60 psi. If so be sure to bleed it off to 12/15 psi or you'll be blowing the pop-off. Good luck

eugene_2

valves

I'm using control valves. going to parallel the feed from the basement, 2-way and return both 3/4" line into 1"
I will add separate valves on the 2, 3/4"

you have an even less nightmarish ways???

please...

Bob Bona_4

do them all the time

use 1 mono T. Depending on the make, it could be on the return or the supply, based on venturi design. I like the B+G ones best, on the return side of the kicker.

I would think a 008 would suffice, the 007 would probaly almost do it, if this is a typical copper fin tube system. Don't forget to add a bleeder at the kicker. A 0010 or a 0014 is inconcievable to me, and way too much pump IMO.

eugene_2

the 0011 seems to be as quite as the 007. the only way i can hear it working is if i put my head close to the feeding line in the basement.
the previous expansion tank installed by the previous
"licensed" plumber was #15 with no air scoop, might I add it was installed upside down.

Brad White_9

Do I gather that this will be a second circulator

in parallel or just a parallel control valve from the boiler, direct to the second floor? That second option would be simpler IMHO.

eugene_2

alright, y'all...
on one hand, because of my addiction to possibly saving even more on my heating bill. I'm thinking of just paralleling the system to 2 zones with will cost me significantly, but it would correct the already 20 feet
over the recommended linear footage. I also no not want
any more temperature drops by adding the kicker.
did I mention I do not want to spend the money nor time to take this great task on?

on the other hand, the only reason why I'm installing this kicker is because I've completely gutted out the 2nd floor bathroom from floor to ceiling and I have to install heating. the bathroom has cost me a great amount already even though I'm going it myself. (the wife wants expensive stuff)

so adding the mono tees would do the job as you guys are saying but would it take much away from the current working system????

Brad White_9

Depending on your heat loss in the bathroom

and what the net output of the kickspace heater will be, you may be OK. But we have no idea, really, without fully understanding your entire system.

But you went that far and did not install a radiant floor...

OK, won't go there...



Brad

eugene_2

don't believe in radiant floors, I leave in NJ. the kind of weather we get over here would freeze out he best radiant floor.

the kicker is rated 8700 BTUH. it's a slant fin kicker I believe TK 90

EBEBRATT-Ed

8700 btu only needs .87 gpm @ a 20 deg delta. You could put in 1 monoflow tee and try it. Probably not the best advise but what do you have to loose??? You can always add the second zone as needed which will provide better comfort and some savings as you could set back the heat upstairs if no one is using that space.

ED

Robert O'Connor_12

eugene

Making a seperate loop makes the most sense to me as well. I also only use one tee and install it on the return. If the unit you purchaed doesn't have a built in bleeder (many do) then I too would add one. The toe kick heaters sometimes come with a switch (high & Low), Its always an added bonus when installed but not always necessary if you calculated the heat loss correctly to the lower setting and given supply temperatures it would receive. A big problem I constantly see is that access is always either very limited or the units are installed without them being accessable at all. This usually creates a problem with the homeowner when it breaks and you have to explain to them how you are gonna "hack" away at the bottom of their beautiful cabinet. Make sure an access panel is installed and is reasonable.

By the way, I'm in New Jersey and I love my warm floors. Are you sure you know what you are missing?

Robert O'Connor/NJ

eugene_2

all power to you robert...

with your radiant floor... does it really give you enough noticeable heat? forget the ratings.
I'm really dreading have to do 2 loops. I think I'm going to just do the moonflower tee for now and during summer I'll try to separate the loop and zone it.

eugene_2

a funny thing happened this evening...

I went to the supposed bathroom, and to my surprise seemed to be warm. I touched the pipes and is was warm. I don't know what happened between yesterday and today but I'm getting flow through the kicker space. I still want to do it right though...
can anyone explain this mystery?

JB_7

kicker

Eugene: You may be pleasently surprised at how well that heater will work if you go ahead and install it in series with your 80 feet of baseboard in the return back to the boiler.

I have a very similar situation and it works like a charm and my mod/con loves me for putting it there, to quote Mark Eatherton "I rearly finds a BB circuit with a 20* delta T"

"seeing is believing and feeling is the real thing" You should go ahead give it a try see for your self no harm will come out of it and it will be reversable

I am just another tinkerer/Hacker (the grundfos 3/speed is my choice)

PS if the unit has a 2 speed fan you could wire the low speed when heat sensor makes and a 30 minute timer for the high speed when the bathroom is in use

my $.01

Brendan

Bob Bona_4

warm maybe

from migration. Doubtful hot enough to make the fan kick on. When the flow is right, the kicker pipes will be painfully hot when your main loop is as hot.

Weezbo

whatever goes into the T must exit the T*~/:)

so,a monoflow t would direct some of that heat on a more regular basis:) what you probably will get is a blast of warm air and then a nice tepid zilch..were i to hazard a guess.

Brad White_9

I live in MA and radiant is the best thing going.

Is your part of NJ in the glacier zone?

Radiant works all the way to Canada and back when properly designed for the climate, Eugene. NJ too! Really!

Your call, just want you to have ALL the good choices.

eugene_2

ha,ha, ha..

thanks, i think i'm beeing converted..

Jerry_15

Probably had a air bubble - by the way you can easily change the kick in sensor to a lower temp. Manufacturer has it, or grainger, cheap fix. Good luck.

Brad White_9

Cats

"The Universe is run by cats".

Useful in explaining ALL unexplainable phenomena. Try it- it works!

Brad White_9

That would make me

A Hydroevangelist, I suppose!

Drop on your knees, Eugene! Receive BTU's as thy savior. Can you FEEL THE HEAT Brother?

Amen.

eugene_2

how do you go about doing that with the slant fin.
i have another kicker in the kitchen that i messed around with. i rapped a tight foil around the sensor to increas the heat. did'nt do much.

eugene_2

you have jokes..

very funny stuff pastor..:-)

Jerry_15

Not sure how the slant fin hooks up, if it's soldered on you can just abandon it and strap on an adjustable one from grainger, johnstone, whatever. I've used flue tape, after all, it doesn't have to go to sea. Jump it out and control it with fan switxh if you just want to experiment. Good luck

Jerry_15

If you lay hands on me, you have to buy dinner first.