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Viessmann Nightmare!
LanceRadiant
Member Posts: 3
I've had my fill of the superior products provided by Viessmann. First thing you need to understand after going to your indocrnation / advanced training, is that Viessmann never makes a mistake. Somehow they tolerate our American attempt to install hydonic systems which we are humbled and grateful. I've spent months dealing with tech support which takes the position that there is nothing wrong with their unit only with the installation. Only to find months later and countless trips, phone calls & an unhappy customer, that they now have a memo dealing with "MY" problem. Yes Viessman has great products but in my experience it's not worth the hassel.I'm with Ken.
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First Install nightmare
We finally found a customer who wanted a Viessmann and only a Viessmann, even after we tried to convince him the Monitor MZ, Weil Ultra and Munchkin were all as good and less money and less restrictive in venting.
The client bought the Viessmann "superior german engineering" line hard - and entirely. If he's willing to shell out the bucks, we're willing to install the system, or so we thought. There's just one problem. The system he wants isn't available. It won't be shipped from Germany for three weeks. He wanted a Vitodens 200, WB2, 6-24. After looking at the venting restrictions, we found the factory would not support the only method available to vent the thing. In addition, he wanted a Vitocell V-300, 79 gallon. The warehouse inadvertently sent us a V-100 (which is not stainless). We installed it only to later find out it was not stainless. There are no Viessmann stainless indirects in the area. Perhaps a 120 gallon, but we have already waited for three weeks for a boiler and indirect which are late - or in the case of the indirect, non-existent.
After all the hyperbole I heard here I assumed someone would be making a call to the father-land.
Instead it's a case of "wait your turn" and we'll get to you when we get to you, sound. Of course, the wholesaler blames the manufacturer while the distributor chooses not to stock anything.
Next time someone says Viessmann, I'll wink and tell them to call someone else.
This will be my first and last Viessmann, thank you very much...
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That is
the 2nd highest concern we have with equipment - availability .
Right below reliability .
We like to have the reassurance that if the boiler leaks or the burner or any fancy controls crap out , there's a ready supply 6 days a week , and within miles of the customer base . Great to see you online again Ken , where you been ?0 -
C'mon Ken
you know that all "good" things come in time!
Jeez, now you'll probably back away from using your burnt/burning Mighty Passiac River Pex (the only pex known to man that is crosslinked with 3-eyed carp scales) in your retirement cabin!
C'mon Ken, if you ordered a Ping driver, and were told that it would take three weeks, you know that you would wait with a smile on your Mug!!!!
~
Leo g
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Sounds like
A: You need to get a different supplier
B: Shipments should be checked when they arrive
C: Familiarity with the product is a little on the light side.
That's OK, learning new stuff always takes a little more effort.
You have a smart customer 
From your post, I take it that the Vito is installed? No? If it is, how did you wind up venting it?0 -
Are you suggesting
there are no stainless indirects in America because I take a dim view of their "hustle"?
I wish I could control the stupidity of selling a product you cannot deliver. But Ron, even I can't do that.
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Well
that was just tongue and cheeck , not meant to be serious . I took it out of my post . So how you been ?0 -
We vented it
using good ole Yankee ingenuity. The chimney is the intake air chase, and the S.S. liner is the discharge.
Familiarity of a product that takes three weeks to be flown in from Germany is hardly a matter of "familiarity." It is a mistaken trust in a manufacturer will be capable of delivering a product they want me to buy - and spend a great deal of time convincing me how wonderful it and they are as well as how "supportive" they are of their installers.
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Here's one of the things I've been up to...
http://www.new-jersey.ws/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=9872
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viessmann \"nightmare\"
Only one question here...where's the Viessmann rep in all of this? The first two Viessmann boilers we installed, they practically led us by the hand. We've had superior support and tech advise here in New England. You need to talk to Viessmann directly and avoid the "middlemen".
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I was reffering to
The venting issue not the availability.
Supply problems are everywhere. It's peak time of year for heating equipment, half of three states were just blown away and/or flooded. Most of the building materials in the US are headed south right now. I had to round up 6,000 sq ft of insulation to be used under a driveway/snow melt job. Lowe's didn't have it, neither did HD or Menard's. Wound up buying it from 4 different sources. What a pain. Not being able to get what you want is the pits.
But hey, Jaye says you were worth waiting for too.
So, how are you keeping exhaust gas from coming back down your "chase"?0 -
Viessmann rep?
We have a wholesaler who has treated us with the ultimate service, until we went german.
We have a rep who stocks nothing. We have service techs who can only read the factory line from the book and refuse to consider anything outside the box (that from Warwick) and we have the father-land. Arrogant, riddled with labor union horrors and an economy ready to crash and burn.
Where does the finger-pointing begin?
Where does it end?
Do I blame my customer for being gullible to a fault? Or do I blame Viessmann for failing to understand simple things like inventory control?
You can tell everyone you make the best boiler and matching indirects on the planet. But if you don't undestand the marketplace, simple inventory and stocking dynamics, who needs you?
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Supply problems are everywhere?
That is NOT a fact of life, nor a sensible thing to allow, or tolerate.
These materials were all ordered four weeks ago. In the 35+ years I've been in this biz, I have never found an entire region of the U.S. without any brand SS indirect or boiler by Weil, HTP or MPI other than this one, Viessmann.
Maybe they are so wonderful they just sold out - as a result of some hyper-zealous demand?
In your dreams..
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If Ever
If ever they were going to mess up they sure picked the worst guy to do it to. That's what you get for deviating from your strong principles. Hope all goes well on the move .
Leo0 -
Leo, I would wait 3 weeks
for a Ping driver, because that's a high quality product anyone would wait for.
But an indirect water heater?
Not happenin' lad. Thank god we didn't disconnect the old water heater... yet.
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Stock
Ken, First off I was at viessamnn the other day (Warwick RI) to pick up a Vitodens. If you were looking for a 6-24 you need to ask your supplier why you had to wait, because they have about 100 to 120 of them in stock in the good old USA. I saw them on the racks just waitng for someone to give them a good home. As far as tanks go the v-300's go fast but I do belive I saw some of those too. If anybody is having trouble getting Viessmann parts it is not because Viessmann don't have them here. Walking around their warehouse is like walking around a candy store.0 -
reps and wholesalers
Sounds like your customer needs help on preplaning, not your rep or wholesaler, neither stock Viessmann here either. we rely on advanced ordering and our stock. as far as Viessmanns "outside the box thinking" they stand 100% behind their product if installed per manufacturers instructions. maybe all others should do the same instead of winging it. marc0 -
Next time
"Ouside the box" referring to restrictive venting for which Viessmann cannot take responsibility? The problem lies with your distributor who is not stocking what he/she should. We have 12 on the shelf as I type this. Try being a manufacturer who tries continually to get distributors to stock anything. It was impossible to get most people to stock ThermoFin(a very few did). They just want to take their commission while the manufacturer takes responsibility for warehousing and shipping. Everyone wants everything "just in time".
Something tells me you went into this looking to be disappointed.
Have a good day, Ken.
-Andrew0 -
We got the boiler...
They don't have a 79 gallon stainless indirect.
The boiler, without the indirect is like a Corvette without tires.
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What product?
The one they don't have and can't deliver?
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Many other do
We never had a problem with Peerless , Burnham , Weil Mclain or Thermo Dynamics on warantee issues , as long as the boilers were piped to spec .0 -
You have one
79 gallon stainless Viessmann indirect?
Ship it tomorrow please.
Want an address?
And blaming me and the wholesalers for Viessmann's shortcomings is hardly what any of us need to hear right now. I am sick over having taken anything guys like you write with any seriousness. The arrogance and condescension is deplorable. But I learned one helluva lesson. I should have gone fishing with the Viesmann rep before I bought the boiler.
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Please refer to
Letter A: in my post above. I too, have had difficulty in getting Viessmann product occasionally. The problem has never been because of Viessmann. The local link is the weak link.
So how are you keeping the flue gas from coming back down the chase?0 -
Venting,
We use the same style concentric fitting as all the others. A stainless squirrel cage with rain cover, drill a 3" hole in the top/cover and allow the discharge to flow freely up and/or sideways.
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79
We have a 79 gallon stainless tank, just not a Viessmann. Our primary choice for indirects is Crown Mega Stor so that's what we stock. If a customer wants a Viessmann tank, we order it well in advance. We do have a Viessmann stainless horizontal 92gal.
-Andrew0 -
If he had wanted a
Crown, I would have installed one.
We'll get through this. It's one incredible learning experience, I can tell you that.
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What
did you learn?
3 weeks should be ample time. Your supplier obviously is not familiar with the Viessmann product line. It sounds like one of those deals where a supplier signs on to be a Viessmann distributor with no intention of properly representing the product line. They just want any sales that happen in that area. It's far from ideal.
If you were in our area, you would not have these problems.
-Andrew0 -
Let me get this straight...
The customer decides to hire a contractor that has no familiarity whatsoever with the desired product. The contractor then uses a distributor that doesn't seem to handle much of the product. Therefore, the contractor somehow has the right to blame the manufacturer for this mess. Hrmmm?0 -
Classic Ken
He's always right, no matter what.
If you can't follow the instructions, or don't want to, it's their fault for not "thinking outside the box".
It MUST be German marketing at fault, it finally got him
You ever notice how controversy just follows some people ?
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Come on now Ken,
Take this advise from someone with experiential knowledge on this forum WRT these kinds of posts. Dont point the finger Ken. It catches up with and follows you. It writes your history.
Perhaps you should have checked the sticker on the box the water heater came in. It is clearly marked in big black on white bold text & numbers. I know you are unfamiliar with the products and its hard to tell the steel lined tank from the stainless unless you read the placard attached at eye level on the jacket;-)
The truth you see is only your perception of an inferior product, foreign government and economy. Have you found any warts on the materials that were delivered?
I just had a Verticell V-300 79 gallon tank delivered a couple weeks ago. My wholesaler picked it up in Warwick and delivered it to a job the very next day. In the back of the delivery truck I saw a 6-24 that was going to somewhere else. I wont be hooking up this VIE30079 for another three weeks because Im still waiting for my Ridgid Pro Press tool that wont be in for a minimum of three, probably five weeks due to what Im being told are production problems at the factory. Thats an American made product right? They have an awesome distribution system in place. Would you agree? Good things come to those that wait.
If you need a tank right now, Ill let you have the one in the basement of one of my jobs in MA but youll have to have someone come and get it for you. Youll pay what I paid. Call me if youre interested.
BTW, Nicely written cute article. A real plumber would have changed out the flange;-)
Wallace Radiant Design
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What I learned was...
Viessmann talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
Anyone who tries to sell something they don't have any of, in the country they are trying to market to, has no concept of how to run a business. Making a good product, no one can get, is dumb.
There's already enough dumb things going on we cannot control. Who we buy our products from and the way they function in the marketplace is their business. Who I choose to use however is my customers choice and mine.
It's all about choices. I made a bad choice. Now I'm paying. It was an interesting lesson. Very interesting.
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Mmmm.
Sticker on the box? What box?
And no Gary, the Rigid Pro Press is not made in America. Unless Viega (who I assumed simply made and branded for Rigid) has moved their manufacturing over here.
Anybody come up with a 79 gallon, stainless Viessmann indirect, please let me know. This has nothing to do with my wholesaler, who is a major player, the distributor who is also a great rep, and everything to do with the manufacturer's failure to have any stock in an entire area of this country. Let's not blame anyone except the people who want us to use their products and the cadre of puppets they pander to - and whose praises are splashed all over this website as being the greatest company and boiler and related product makers of the world - and doesn't even know how to keep basic inventory.
The finger pointing is pointless. Unless of course you accept the notion that marketing without having products that can be delivered as acceptable?
What was I thinking?
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Correct,
> He's always right, no matter what. If you can't
> follow the instructions, or don't want to, it's
> their fault for not "thinking outside the
> box".
>
> It MUST be German marketing at fault, it
> finally got him
>
> You ever notice how
> controversy just follows some people ?
Marketing a product you don't have would come under my notion of "controversial."
Mia culpa, yet again
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SO Ken
The boiler is installed ?
What did you think of the install ? Easy to hang on the supports ? What about the wiring package ? The quality of the heat exchanger ? The control package ? Did you set it up ?
Theres alot more to this story beside a indirect that your supplier could'nt supply.
I have to say Ken, alot of times we get supplys from the supply house and get back to the job to find that some of the fittings where not what we ordered. Guess who's fault it is for not checking ??
For someone who is a meticulous as you are, I am supprised that on your first experience with this " flawed " German product that you did'nt double check everything. I would have assumed that YOU would have been "Looking" for a mistake ?
If you look hard enough for something .. you'll find it.
Scott
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One more time...
You wrote, "There's alot more to this story beside a indirect that your supplier could'nt supply."
I wrote, "The MANUFACTURER has no inventory anywhere in this region in all of North America."
THAT, results in no rep or wholesaler having any either!
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Ken,i cannot totally agree with you ,buh...
recently someone wanted a boiler and i set everything in motion to get them what they wanted...it drug on for weeks...finally i bought one from a buddy and installed it.now the hassel i have is that i dont buy into the proprietary deal they have set up,so i being a bit p.o;ed with the fact that i had offered them a better boiler at a great price basically hated every min of it. however i got whwt i got and paid for it. so in a way i have a definite understanding how you are hating what you "got"in the process... so in a way while not the best of all possible deals they have thier boiler. Heres where my post goes awyr ,the boiler i offered them was a Viessmann with a 300.
I am trying my best to Go With on this buh man it urinates me off to be given the opportunity to make some POS do what it can to make up for it not being a Viessmann .it makes me feel like a frog.
its 3 a.m. here.0 -
Gary,
That is very kind of you to fix Ken's problem by making your tank available to him. Like you, my contractor had no issues with getting stock from Viessmann, even when I asked for some of the more obscure accessories like a Switching Module-V or a flue gas temp sensor.
It's also too bad that Ken seems more intent on smearing the reputation of the manufacturer, the country of origin, and the installers that like the product rather than fixing the problem since he hasn't (publicly) taken you up on your offer in his reply above. Perhaps he just needed to vent.
Given that the VitoCells have their product numbers embossed on the front of the tank, I wonder how it could have been missed that it was a 100, not a 300, that was delivered. Besides, I would attribute the mistake in delivery to the supply house/rep, not the manufacturer. I have also included a picture of the top of a Vitocell 300 so Ken can recognize it in the future, with or without the benefits of a delivery box.0 -
Connie,
Thank you so much for being so thoughtful, insightful and erudite.
I knew I could count on you. And, you never let me down.
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Happy to Help
So, did you or any of the installers on this job ever get around to getting trained by Viessmann on how to install and set up a Vitodens or did your team apply Good Ole' Yankee Ingenuity throughout this install?0 -
Actually,
The boiler is so perfectly engineered, it actually installed itself!
But then it blew in my ear and softly whispered, "Too bad my cousin, the 79-gallon stainless indirect you need is still in the father-land." "Can I just tell you how wunderbar our trains run..."
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Here's Another One ...
... where the fingers can be pointed in a lot of directions: The HO did his online research and decided he had to have a Vitorond 200. Whole house was to be radiant, so he went for the Vitotronic, which he was assured would be easy to operate. Here's a direct quote from the Vitotronic brochure: "The display of the control is large, clearly legible and illuminated. But better yet - it uses plain language! Anyone can read and understand it, SAVING THE USER FROM SEARCHING THROUGH THE OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS." (SHOUTING IS MINE.) Fast forward to last Friday. The house has been through a full winter, the HO has two rooms with inadequate heat because apparently no one did a heat loss, the technician the oil company sent called the Vitotronic a "short wave radio" and started playing with the Vitotronic buttons, the Viessmann rep had been all over the HO to close the sale, but won't return phone calls because to this rep, the HO is history as soon as the order is booked ... so last Friday, the HO, a wholesaler (who didn't sell the Viessmann), a new P&H Contractor, and I are all in the basement staring at the short wave radio with the cocktail glasses and faucets on the buttons (No instruction manual in sight ... can't blame the Big V for that). OK, I understand the cocktail button is the "party" setting. I'll say it before you guys do ... I guess we are all below the expected intelligence level required to operate a Vitotronic without looking at the manual. My excuse is that I'm a PE, but the wholesaler and the contractor are knowledgable people. Guess what - he's worried that THROUGH NO FAULT OF THE EQUIPMENT, he will lose his heat at the worst possible time, and no one will be able to help him. Let's just say the job is up in the country. So, here's what the HO wants now, and IMHO, he's justified. Rip out the Vitorond, the Vitotronic, and the motorized 4-way valve and put them up on Ebay. Put in a "common" boiler, with whatever burner the oil company prefers (Beckett or Carlin) and a tekmar 356. The oil company can service the boiler, and I can fix the 356 over the phone and if not, I will do it personally, even though it's after the sale. What a concept. You know what, sometimes the competition makes YOUR job easier. Sorry for the rant, this may be my longest ever.0
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