Ultra Fin ??

Unknown

Log Home?

If a room load is over 15 BTUs/sq ft, I'll be stunned if it'll heat. Their specs are questionable, one could say.. I'm told their "ratings" is heat output from the pipe, not from the floor. Couldn't swear to it in a court of law, but it surely violates any sense of reason that they can show "output" without taking floor R-value into account, eh?

Steve Ebels_3

Ultra Fin ?? SE

Ran into a job that's been up and running for a year this past week. The mechanical inspector called and asked me to take a look at it because he was suspicious about performance of the system and piping issues. The HO is physically handicapped and told the MI that he was cold after moving in late last February.
Here's the things I spotted.

1. No insulation under the floor joists.

2. No heat whatsoever in the basement.

3. As near as I can tell the fin is clipped on 400' lengths of 5/8" pex

4. The system is driven by a standard Dunkirk atmospheric boiler which had the A-stat adjuusted to 160*.

5. It's a log cabin utilizing those square cut logs approx 8" in thickness. No additional insulation on the walls.

6. The usual piping issues are present, not pumping away etc.

7. There is no control system other than a t-stat calling on the boiler and the circ.

Questions:

What temp is Ultra fin supposed to run at? What insulation thickness should be used under the tube? Do they specify a max tube length? How far below the floor is the UF supposed to be installed?

Constantin

Run away! :-)

Sounds like a complete gut job as far as the heating system is concerned. Here are the specifications, along with some nice pictures. Knowing nothing more than the construction, I'd treat it like a glorified suspended tube system. I doubt it would touch a staple-up plate system like the Thermofin, for example.

I bet the insulation should be in the same range as suspended tube, i.e. the thicker the better. Installation instructions can be found on the official site, though the actual file was 404 for me.

ALH_4

UF

Is a retrofit to radiators possible?

Ultra-Fin is riding on the edge of working in moderate heat loads, even at extremely high fluid temps. I do not think it can be made to work alone, in that application, without supplemetal heat.

-Andrew

hr

I would say

that the output would be greater than bare tube joist bay methods. Possibly close to the old copper fin tube radiant systems installed in the 50 and 60's?

I just installed my first Ultra Fin job. I did band the perimiter with transfer plates. It will be carefully observed with the infared camera this season and compared to my infared video tape collection of rubber staple up, fin transfer plates, suspended tube and WarmBoard.

But first things first, do a heatload calc to see where your destination actually is. If the house is completed a very accurate load calc is possible. Even a blower door test to get an infiltration number closer than an educated guess. Even flow and output in those loop lengths can be calculated to the absolute.

The Ultra Fin does have some Warnock Hersey testing results attached to it. That's a lot better than some stab in the dark methods.

Insulation is a must, regardless of which under floor system or method you chose. Get a copy of their installation manual to assure it is installed to their requirements.

UltraFin looks like an ideal way to add some small floor radiant to an exisiting hydronic baseboard system

hot rod

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Nron_13

pictures

Hey will you have some pictures for the system and will you post them here including the infer-red photos ? it would be great to see them , where do you get an infer-red camera anyway ?

hr

Sure, I will post pics

I rent the camera from Springfield City Utilities, a local power provider. There are a lot of these cameras out there. Fire departments are another place to look. Check out the info at www.flir.com They do some interesting stuff with these cameras.

The pics below show rubber staple up, suspended tube ThermoFin copper and pex, and Warmboard testing. Can you pick out the various methods?

hot rod

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

excellent photo

But help me out a little. My gut tells me that the tubes in a suspended tube installation would be invisible. What is the spacing between the tubes and the bottom of the subfloor in a typical suspended tube installation?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Methods

From front to rear:

Warmboard

Copper in Thermofin

Rubber staple-up

Suspended

PEX in Thermofin

ALH_4

What

amazes me is how well you can see the screws.

-Andrew

hr

Most interesting

in pic 3 the transfer that the staples holding the rubber tube show! pic 5 is suspended, and the camera does see the tube through the floor.

Pic 8 shows what happens if the Thermofin does not contact the subfloor tightly. #13 show WarmBoard with a groove routered across the panel in 2 spots. Notice how the conduction transfer is broken when the aluminum is cut!

hot rod

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

more questions

1. What kind of floor joists?
2. What kind of subfloor?
3. What kind of insulation under the tubing? Does it touch the tubing?
4. What is the material that appears to be floorcovering over the left half of all the test bays?

I guess a conventional photo of the test rig would answer a lot of my questions.

Thanks in advance.

[Deleted User]

Connie's prescription

is right on the mark.

It is possible to create a comfortable, long lasting, efficient dry radiant (staple up) heating system. This is not one.

Ask the HO the right questions, offer a real solution, tell us how it went with pix, we all win.

hr

Hi Kevin

This was a 12" deep TJI floor build up. It had 3/4" Advantech subfloor. The tube was installed as per the manufactures installation manual. The rubber Onix was stapled 2 tubes per bay 8" on center.

The suspended tube as per the Wirsbo installation method, same 2 tubes per bay 8" on center. Both these had the 2" air gap below the tube and a 6" fiberglass batt R-19 was used below all panels, even the Warmboard.

The T-Fin was also 8" on center.

Interestingly the WarmBoard was a 12" on center standard panel and showed a very nice temperature spread, but of course the aluminum layer is on top with this product.

The back half or every sheet 4'X4' had berber carpet without carpet pad to see the output picture difference.

All these tests were done in my shop with an air temperature around 60°

The UltraFin will be an actual install in a small residence, not a test panel in my shop.

hot rod

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leo g_13

Hey HR

I've been using kick space heaters lately. These little beasts seem to pour out enough heat to warm the tile quite considerably. And a lot less stress on the ole arms from the lack of drilling!

Leo G

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hr

Lots of bang for the bucks with

kickspace heaters. Yet another way to warm toes.

hot rod

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

Quicker Too

A real luxury is taking the bathroom up above 75F for that morning shower. If you had a concrete/gypcrete floor, that would waste some btu's because of the thermal lag. The kickspace heater would bring the room up to temp faster, and the heat wouldn't linger long after it's needed.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Thanks for the comparison

Great work Hot Rod,

Sometimes there are a lot of opinions & theories circulating around. It's great to see some actual comparative results. My intuition was definitely faulty in regard to natural convection in the joist bay.