Energy Kinetics System 2000

Jim Hankinson

I'd like to address some of the issues raised in this string. I apologize for it's lengthiness. The Energy Kinetics System 2000 is as efficient as claimed. At the present time the only recognized indicator of efficiency for system comparison is AFUE which was developed for scorched air furnaces, not combined heat/hot water systems. The control system and design of the boiler are what give it its high efficiency. Non-proprietary controls alone won't do it. A Beckett or Carlin burner with the Energy Kinetics air box is quieter than a Riello burner with their air box. The glass lined storage tank is not a converted electric water heater, it's a tank made specifically for storing hot water. The combination of plate heat exchanger and tank make hot water faster than virtually any indirect on the market. If there's a hard water problem, treat the water rather than curse the product. Cuno makes a product called the Scale Stopper (AP430) that prevents scale accumulation in plate heat exchangers and tankless coils. As far as preferring a Tekmar so that the post-purge is always to the hot water tank, that was an idea that EK thought about and dismissed many years ago. Why not put the heat where you want it? If no one is home, vacation, business trip, etc for an extended period of time, what happens to the tank temperature? If the heat anticipator on the thermostat is set correctly a zone will not over heat on post-purge. Anti-freeze - with proper installation and maintenance of it there should be relatively few problems in anybody's boiler. First make sure the system has been cleaned, then calculate the correct amount to add. Make sure the water is not hard. Use additives as necessary and check the water once a year for a ph of 8.5 - 9.0. This prevents corrosion of the water side whether steel or cast iron. Read the anti-freeze mfr's literature for more info on this. Large water volume systems - no problem for any boiler if piped correctly. Primary/secondary piping smooths out the heat transfer, gives even heat throughout the house and keeps the boiler clean. Virtually any boiler made today is low mass when compared to a house full of old radiators or cast iron baseboard. Surge protection - that's been built into the system electrical relay board for the last five years. CO2 - If a system achieves it's efficiency from the design of the system it doesn't have to be set at 12 1/2 - 13% to save money. If the CO2 is tested in the breech, which is where it is generally tested on conventional systems, the CO2 over fire, which is more accurate, could be 13 1/2 or 14%, almost at the point of no excess air. What happens if the air supply becomes restricted, read dryer lint, pet hair,etc. I hate midnight calls for a sooted boiler due to insufficient combustion air. Most boiler refractory, chambers, target walls, etc are rated for approximately the same max operating temperature. High CO2 increases the chamber temp and also lowers the stack temp. High chamber temp can prematurely deteriorate the chamber or target, low stack temp can cause chimney condensation.

IanC

Energy Kinetics System 2000

Hi All,

I'm a homeowner who's looking to replace our beat oil-fired Utica boiler with tankless hot water and have been searching for something as fuel efficient as possible (I'm locked in at $2.20/gal for the next year). The Energy Kinetics System 2000 boilers caught my eye and their low-mass/high insulation/digitally-managed/(add marketing hype here) design seems like a good idea. The questions is... are they really as energy efficient as they claim? If I buy a Weil-McLain WGO and Phase III indirect water heater like my oil company is suggesting, will I be throwing my money away heating my basement and a few hundred pounds of cast iron instead of a couple of gallons of water? Does anyone have any real-world experience? Has there been any independent testing done to verify the claims? Thanks for the info.

Ian

oilwizard

they are good

But they have limitations. I've installed many and they are god andefficient. If you an overly large house on a single zone, you could be pushing it if it is not sized correctly. If you cave a set up like hydro air, perfect. They are very quiet running and easy to service. Find a systen 2000 dealer, have him do a heat loss on your house, any contractor that you have give you a quote should do this, no matter what they sell, an dgo from there.
Joe

Joe Brix

I was looking to get one

but I wasn't to happy about what was part of the package for the price: Beckett AFG burner and a glass lined booster tank (converted electric WH). For the same price, I got a Burnham LE with a Riello burner, a Phase III stainless steel indirect, Tekmar 260 boiler control AND added a stainless steel liner to my chimney.

Might be a little less efficent, but I prefered having the chimney liner, very quiet Riello, higher quality indirect with a longer warranty, and non-proprietary boiler controls.

I had to get a top flue boiler due to space issues. Had I had more room, I would have looked at a Biasi C.I. 3 pass boiler. Buderus, Burnham MPO would have been next on my list but they would have been pricer.

Tundra

System 2000 is the an efficient boiler. It has some major flaws. These flaws provide me with a major portion of my income. The Buderus and the Viessman are nice units. I have the Biasi B-10 in my home and i love it.

Kal Row

look into the monitor fzx...

http://www.mzboiler.com/products/fcx/index.html

kevin coppinger_13

please elaborate....

what are the flaws? kpc

Joe Brix

The FCX

is very expensive, comes in only one small size: 76K BTU. I still don't believe you can chance a condensing boiler with #2 oil. Maybe someday if we get cleaner #2 or you burn #1 oil......

Rich P.

Quiet!

I have been installing them for over a year now, very reliable. You can get a Riello, no extra charge, you can get a Stainless tank as well They have a space saving stackable combo nice! Gas or oil no problem.
I had one of 17 with a bad sensor, 2 minute fix.
I use where ever I can. If not A WGO-3/Riello F40/Gold Plus
60


Rich Palmieri

Joe Brix

You're right RIch

But my contractor kept pushing the booster tank, since a stainless indirect would have increased the price even further. I don't think many here recommend the flat plate HX if you're using well water. I also read that the boiler manager always post purges to the last called zone, I prefer the Tekmar which always post purges the boiler to the indirect, not overheating a heating zone. EK also doesn't believe in outdoor reset, I guess because the boiler short cycles as it is.

Tundra

Kevin C.

To elaborate, I have seen a significant number of them start rusting on the glycol side. This plugs up the heat plate exchanger. You then lose circulation in the bypass line and the boiler steams off and goes out on high limit. It also cooks the glycol which then becomes acidic. They suggest putting in a wye strainer. After doing this the plate heat exchanger doesn't plug but the wye does and you have the same problem. I have seen a few of the Mansgers go down due to poor electrical power. They recommend a surge protector. I recommend a UPS. You can't run higher than about 11% CO2 or you will burn out the combustion chamber. I prefer to walk away from a boiler at 12.5 to 13% CO2. I think that twenty five years ago, or whenever this was designed, it was fantastic.

paul_39

system 2000

have sold and serviced this equiment for over 20 years. i have had one unit leak in this time. far less than w. m or burham. they are not for good for older high water volum systems. with a little training service techs love them.

paul_39

system 2000

have sold and serviced this equiment for over 20 years. i have had one unit leak in this time. far less than w. m or burham. they are not for good for older high water volum systems. with a little training service techs love them.

paul_39

system 2000

have sold and serviced this equiment for over 20 years. i have had one unit leak in this time. far less than w. m or burham. they are not for good for older high water volum systems. with a little training service techs love them.

Richard_4

energy kinetics

have been installing and servicing ek boilers for several years and have never had any major problems or call backs. but you have to remember, this is a man made machine along with any other boiler/ heating system, none of them are perfict or infoulable. i say go with your gut, do your reserch, make your choise. every boiler is good and some are better than others. the fact that energy kinetics proudly lables thier product made in U.S.A. is enough for me

kevin coppinger_4

Tundra....

thanks for the info. I am replacing one right now that was put in a older cast iron rad house. Even with the low limit protection (4006) it condenced in the flue and pluged.
As to the glycol issue...I can't stand the stuff period. I only use glycol in a HAVE to situation. Pipe insulation and god system design is the way to go...loss of powerto the home, you have got other problems too...kpc

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RoosterBoy

Howdy *~/:)

i liked the designe of the boiler from the day i saw it. however ,to me the control system and the boiler designe alone doesnt justify the cost of thier product. and forgive me for badmouthing them buh...i am not that enthusiastic about thier choise of burners either.

so, i guess you would have to say that weezbo likey the boiler no likey anything else about it )

Maine Ken

Whats wrong with a Beckett, Carlin or Reillo???? All come with the System.

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RoosterBoy

Jim, why hasnt Energy Kinetics designed thier own burners?

wouldnt it make more sence to develope a burner that actually preformed on more than a simple bang bang scale? i agree that the boiler itself is superb .however to me it would be better served by a burner that actually worked on a slightly more even match to the actual conditions required in the space,especially during shoulder seasons. i am un ashamed to admitt that i have no paticular liking for the (oil):beckets , carlins or riellos on your boilers. i think that the burner should be redesigned for longer burn times answering the short cycling of renown. and put another way,anyone who designed the boiler around the inception of the product would have a far better insight than a mere nobody such as myself. perhaps thier input would ,after the wisdom gained over the last 25 years or so , prove invaluable.my thought is a burner with more than one size nozzel and with a mechanical time temperature control logic actuating the shutter openings and turbulator.and the openning and closing of addtional solenoid valve for the gun feeding an additional nozzel.That way there would be a slightly more even firing range than even a stepped function high/ low fire. This isnt an idea that just dropped in out of the ethers yesterday afternoon. have you any information on the RDB 2.2 riellos ,i live far from the mainstream and am unable to get things sometimes for Years after they were offered on the market.really though i have thought the boiler needed its own burner since seeing one for the first time somewhere along 1978 or there abouts.well, i have babbeled long enough ...

Kal Row

modulating oil? toooo much mula-shmulla for residential!!!!...

The cost of modulating a liquid fuel device cost is way out of sight, besides the burner design which is itself a **** and a half (just look at the weishaupt burners www.weishaupt-corp.com) – there is the modulated heat distribution issues in the heat exchanger – I am currently (as consultant) involved with a nursing home that had a 500ton Trane lithium bromide absorption liquid chiller, complete with a 3-10million BTU modulating weishaupt dual-fuel (oil/gas) burner, problem was that the cooling load on the chiller was only about 300tons max, (oops) – over fired for the load, and they had a premature burner tube failure – est repair cost 200K nt to mention the cost of renting GE chiller trucks for the summer –

Yes we do need to run with “setback” of course – but in small residential oil applications, the setback is most economically had, with primary/secondary/vari-speed injection or some variant there-of as in the system 2000 – personally for the same price, I would rather do it myself using a slant-fin INTREPID with a tekmar setback/mixing control – and use two indirect hot water tanks, one for DMHW and one as a heating buffer tank – it’s a less preparatory setup – easier to diagnose and get parts for, It would cost less to buy but more to install, evens out to apx the same

Jim Hankinson

Energy Kinetics System 2000

When the system was first being designed (late 1970's)Beckett was the most widely known flame retention oil burner on the market. Standard components that every tech should know how to service and carry parts for. Over the years we still find that for standard installations, i.e. fintube baseboard, air handlers, CI rads, etc, we don't see that a modulating burner or modulating the boiler temp will improve our efficiency. For radiant systems we advocate using a buffer tank with outdoor reset injection. This practically eliminates standby loss since the heat lost from a storage tank is much less than that of a hot boiler. Every system that we sell has different firing rates available by changing nozzles and firing rates. Unless the boiler has been grossly oversized for the house (read some of Dan's articles on boiler sizing) there is not a short cycling problem. One of the problems that could occur with a firing rate closely matched to the actual heat loss of the dwelling would be condensation. We're trying to keep things as simple as possible while maintaining a high system efficiency. Over the years there have been specialty burners introduced on other boilers that were supposed to be more efficient but the service calls necessary to keep them running cost more than the fuel saved.

Kal Row

\"modulating burner..\"

"we don't see that a modulating burner or modulating the boiler temp will improve '''OUR''' efficiency"

yours not - but "efficiency" as a rule yes!!!

just ask anyone that put in a weil-mclain ultra - they will show you their before and after therm per degree day usage and gloat

Richard_4

sys 2000

as you read through your replies about the system 2000 notice that there are no solid pit falls about this hot water energy converter, only comments not based on fact.I have seen other high end boilers crack due to thermal shock, cracked sections, leaking push nipples or gaskets, cracked aluminium heat exchangers. problems like this real problems. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN WITH SYSTEM 2000.

RoosterBoy

Jim, The heat manager controls the return temps....

by switching of an on the boilers recirc,correct?

does it use a variable speed control to accomplish this behaviour or is it say more like a time lag relay?

Jim Hankinson

The manager and temperature sensor monitor return water temperature and based on that fire the burner, open and close zone valves and purge residual heat from the boiler at the end of a call. The system circulator starts at the initiation of any call and runs through to the end of post-purge (Energy Recovery). On a typical boiler these functions are based either on supply temperature or in the case of zone valves, may be directly controlled by the thermostat. The circulator will cycle based more on supply temperature (that's where the aquastat is located) and condensation is always a real possibility. On most cold start boilers everything starts at once with no condensation protection. How much more scale is there in a typical cold start boiler than a maintaining boiler? On our system we run the boiler right up in temperature on every cycle so after a years use the only accumulation in the boiler is scale from sulfur in the oil.

RoosterBoy

The ek i fired today is running fine and has been steadily

pumping btus to the field it hasnt shut off nor has it started in shutting off and off,the water is modulating up and down a bit and the slabs are seeing about72 or so. it was comming back about 40 at first, it is sorta important to me to get it under better control than i have at present,so, tomorrow,i am going to hook up all my zones and the radiant system pump to an expandable taco with a variable speed 705 -2 with outdoor reset on the buffer tank,take the 1"erie off the t stat,close the by pass, because i would like to be able to control my slabs with as cool a fluid as possible and satisfy the manager and boiler i am of the intention to use two seperate one inch zones to feed the buffer,with an and or set of temp sensors in place of the t stat now running the erie zone and the open erie zone acting as a large bypass. i really like the Taco pump blocks,and i thought of just doing an injection loop .i am relatively keen on partial reset though and i find the taco I series a great tool for that . however steady state return water would obfuscate the ability of the Heat manager to dial itself out and turn off the return water, sorta. i dont mind rethinking everything i do in reverse or backwaerds however explain to me again why you dont like to use out door reset of any kind? the only thing that i can think is cold weather shut down .....

Constantin

Let the market decide...

...the likes of Weishaupt, Hermann, etc. have already developed 2-stage and/or modulating oil burners for the residential market. Riello is rumored to be beta-testing a residential-sized 2-stage burner as well. I think these burners are the only way that oil burners will be able to defend their dwindling market share in the future.

There is an element of scale that is going to be difficult to overcome, but at least the electronics to run the pumps, etc. have become significantly cheaper and reliable. Electronics can now obviate much of the mechanical wizardry that used to go on inside modulating burners by varying the air pressure and oil pressure electronically and independently, based on feedback from within the boiler.

Imagine a boiler that had a built-in CO₂sensor in the flue system to ensure that the fuel/air ratio is near perfect. Once fuel oil in this country is cleaner...

With flue gas temperature feedback, a two-stage or modulating burner could be safely retrofit on just about anything. Program a minimum flue gas temp into the burner, then allow that to roar at full power until the flue gases reach a safe temperature, then throttle back to meet the load (if need be) only to roar at full power again if the flue gases start to dip. In an ideal world, the whole enchilada is controlled by one CPU that can use fuzzy logic, the various temperature outputs, etc. to determine what kind of firing is appropriate.

The benefits of setback also vary by heating system. It's not going to do much for homes with emitters in the ground, for example. Similarly, high-mass homes will also likely not do a lot of cooling or heating off-cycle if they are properly insulated and weatherized.

I hope the "engineers" that designed the chiller system are paying you well. Being off by 200 tons should call for the gentlemen who specified the system to be sent back to engineering school. I just saw an "engineered" Vitola with a LLH, a gas burner, and fixed-output 3-way mixing valves. What a waste.

heatboy

I installed my first EK..........

in 1989 and it runs as good now as it did the day it was started. This one runs the complete gambit of hydronics. Fin tube baseboard, Runtal radiators, joist bay radiant and a zone of hydro-air. While I would do things a little different now when using the EK, it's been a relatively trouble free boiler.

Ron Schroeder_3

with all due respect

pH ranging from 9 to 10.5 is the correct range for heating system constructed of Ferrous materials.

All combustion efficiency is measured at the breech but before the dilution air form the barometric damper is added. Your reference to overfire CO2 values is mere dissembly.

CO2 values between 12 and 13 percent are valid combustion targets with any decent burner firing into a sound boiler design.

Nobody likes late night no heat calls especially when sooting is the issue. Ensure an adequate and clean air supply, adjust a precise burner with combustion analyzer in hand, suggest regular maintenance and you shouldn't get them. I love late night no heat calls where sooting is the problem when it is someone else's fault...

Jim Hankinson

The antifreeze ph

figures that I gave are taken from the specification sheet from Hercules Cryo-tek, an information sheet from Raypak and is mentioned in an article Dan H. wrote in 1997. Undiluted antifreeze has a ph of between 9.0-10.5 but after diluting with water to 30-50% mix will drop to about 8.3-9.0%. Treat with an inhibitor if it drops below 8.0.

Testing the CO2 at the breech assumes that the boiler or furnace is tight and there is no air leakage between sections, around clean out doors, etc. How do you know if it's tight? Test CO2 overfire and in the breech. There should be less than 1/2% difference. More than than indicates air leakage that should be found and corrected.