The Official End All Fuel Cost Comparison Chart

Dan_8

Is that wood number missing a decimal or something? A quick search came up with this link (the first one I found that had numbers, not saying it's the most accurate but hopefully it's in the ballpark):

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-79.html

It's saying in a perfect world it's more like 11.6 pounds of wood per 100MBTU. Then that's adjusted down for moisture and burning efficiency. Sound right?

Here are the applicable paragraphs:

"A pound of oven dry wood of any species has a heating value of about 8,600 BTU. However, the available heat per pound of wood depends, in part, upon its moisture content when burned.

Freshly cut Indiana hardwoods commonly have a 75 percent moisture content on an oven- dry basis. That is, every pound of freshly cut wood contains .57 pounds of dry wood and .43 pounds of water. Therefore, the total available heat per pound of wood at 75 percent moisture content is 4,900 BTU (0.57 pounds x 8,600 BTU/pound). At a 50 percent burning efficiency, the usable heat is 2,450 BTU per pound. Air dried firewood contains about 20 percent moisture or .83 pounds of dry wood and .17 pounds of water. The usable heat value is, then, 3,600 BTU per pound."

Steve Ebels_3

The Official End All Fuel Cost Comparison Chart

Thanks up front to the good folks at Burnham for publishing this in their ever useful Burnham's Heating Helper. If you don't have one call them and get one.

The numbers below compare the fuel listed based on quantity required for 100,000 btu's of available heat. You must of course factor in the efficiency of your own appliance and local pricing.

Natural gas = 1 Therm

Propane gas = 1.089 gallons

Butane gas = .977 gallons

#1 fuel oil = .746 gallons

#2 Fuel oil = .719 gallons

#4 fuel oil = .681 gallons

#6 fuel oil = .667 gallons

Bituminous coal = 92lbs.

Anthracite coal = 88lbs

Wood (mixed avg) = 286lbs.

Each of those quantities equal 100,000 BTU

hr

Also

the Heating Cost Calculator on the HDS software is real nice. It allows you to input heat load, fuel costs, equipment efficiency, and degree day info! Try a demo at www.hydronicpros.com

I included nuclear supplied electric at a projected .70 a KWH

hot rod

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THP_6

hot rod

Is that suppose to be .07 cents per kwh?
If not I don't want them to supply my electricity.

THP_6

hot rod

Is that suppose to be .07 cents per kwh?
If not I don't want them to supply my electricity.

hr

Good eye!

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Joe Grosso

Well, HR, in New York State that would be 1.80 per therm, 2.20 LP and 13cents per kilowatt hr. Just to be accurate.:)

hr

With actual numbers sent to me

from Al, back east I am surprised that his LP costs are twice mine!

Also note I used 80% efficiencies for the gas, oil, and lp. Boost the gas and lp to 90% and you get $2046 (ng) and $3305 (lp)

Also with firewood,see the page from the Burnham Heating Helper, only 56% of a cord of wood is actually wood! The rest is air space! I imagine the bark would also need to be calculated out?

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Matt_32

Just the beginning

Corn - 14lbs./100,000 btu., $2.50 bushel(56 pounds) - $.63

Larry (from OSHA)

corn burners

I've heard that they work really well. The btu content may be even better than that. Check the following:

http://energy.cas.psu.edu/energycontent.html

Larry (from OSHA)

hr

I think corn

is best used for food and or feed. If there is that much "bad" corn that it can be burned then some farmers did not make out so well

Takes a lot of water and soil nutrients to raise corn. I can't see raising it just to burn. Possibly the stalks or other byproducts.

There was a rural legend that farm kids would smoke the corn silk to get a buzz?? I tried it once, but never inhaled

hot rod

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Larry (from OSHA)

personally

I like my corn with salt and butter and fresh from the field!

Larry

miruca

electric v oil

This is just the type of information I need (and am trying to understand) to make a decision on the fuel source for my new construction. I had decided oil because that has traditionally been significantly cheaper here ..but after input from several people I'm giving electric a second look.

Right now, in Juneau Alaska, oil is about $2.75 gal & electric is .0758. I don't understand how to calculate the BTU or whether that would make a difference in the calculations.

Is this software a "freeware" someplace?

miruca

electric v oil

This is just the type of information I need (and am trying to understand) to make a decision on the fuel source for my new construction. I had decided oil because that has traditionally been significantly cheaper here ..but after input from several people I'm giving electric a second look.

Right now, in Juneau Alaska, oil is about $2.75 gal & electric is .0758. I don't understand how to calculate the BTU or whether that would make a difference in the calculations.

Is this software a "freeware" someplace?

Tony_23

\"Bad\" corn

Doesn't burn well, any more than bad oil.

Corn is totally renewable. The water is free (usually).

We're not producing near as much as we could, and not using what we grow now.

Tony_23

Wait a minute

I think there are missing decimals somewhere

Anthracite coal has 13,700 BTU/lb. That's 7.3 lbs/100,000 BTU. Bituminous works out to 8 lbs/100,000 BTU.

Not knowing what a cord of wood weighs, I can't calculate that, but 286 lbs sounds pretty high.

You'd have to shovel in shifts

THP_6

Okay

Corn avg. 8,000 btu's per pound input.
56 pounds per bushel avg.
8,000 x 56 = 448,000 btu
448,000 divided $2.50 per bushel = 179,200 btu per dollar input.

hr

I wonder what efficiency

a corn burner runs at? Most wood burners, of the non gasification type, run between 40- 45% efficiency. Corn and pellet feed mechanisms are a bit moody also, from what I have heard.

hot rod

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THP_6

Eff.

I have tested them in the 80% range.

hr

miruca

Here is some info. I can't do fractions of a cent, so I ran .07 and .08 on the electric.

I'd be willing to bet the electric rates stay more stable than oil?

Or you could install both an electric and oil fired, and switch according to energy rates. Small electric, on demand, heaters aren't real expensive. You will need some serious electric capacity to drive them, if your loads are high. I used 80,000 for this calc.

This software is from th HDS, it's not free. Many of the utilities have free calcs. They tend to skew towards their favor. I've used one at www.usepropane.com, or something like that.

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hr

Was the testing

done at Warnock- Hersey or some other independant lab? There are some pretty wild claims made by solid fuel burning manufactures out there. I understand a lab test for efficiency and emmissions can run in the 20 grand neighborhood!

It looks to be a nice unit and clean install. Will it burn wood pellets also, if corn is not available?

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THP_6

Yes and Yes

This unit had a few modifications done to it. The home owner is not a hands on person so it had to be able to run without much help. Anything past 7,000 to 8,000 btu per pound is not obtainable.

miruca

Great thanks! I bet electric stays more stable too - a duel fuel option s a good idea - it would be especially nice if it could be in one unit!!

It's interesting that a lot of people still use wood stoves to supplement or replace the main heat source .. and it appears that that is a very expensive option if buying the wood. I heard yesterday that someone was selling at $160/cord.

I don't quite understand the load thing (yet) but I'll get that figured out... thanks.

Matt_32

eff.'s

I handle a brand of indoor direct vent corn stoves that have been tested at a 95%+ combustion efficiency by Omni-test laboratories. These units use variable speed intake/exhaust blowers coupled to an egt sensor to achieve this efficiency. The unit is auto-firing and auto ash dumping. Frankly, in my opinion, they are light years ahead of the rest in technology and user friendliness. That being said they are not cheap, BUT like most anything else you get what you pay for!
It's amazing what technology can do for the industry when engineers are allowed to think outside the box in terms of alternative fuels! When we took these units on I thought that there is NO way that it can be that efficient (read-bogus claims). I was wrong. When I can take my hand and lay it on the exhaust output at max. fire and comfortable hold it there - that's saying something.
I am not here to solicate my product, my only point is that there ARE alternative products that are here and on the way that will impress even the most pessimistic individual.
Regards, Matt

hr

Matt does this

corn fired appliance use condensing technology?

As I understand it gas or oil fired equipment will not exceed high 80's without condensing technology. Be interesting to know how they get those efficiency numbers with a fuel as simple as a kernel of corn? I suspect the fuel content of corn varies greatly as wood does, based on moisture content density, etc.

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Matt_32

I know that I am limited to the distance of my exhaust before termiination. They monitor the egt's to the lowest point practical before condensation. I do know that corn has different particulate/chemical charateristics than gas or oil or wood. The intake/exhaust is double wall so the intake is pre-heated apon entry to the unit. I am not an engineer but my one report says that the weighted average for particulates is 2.25 grams per hour. Please enlighten me as to what importance this particulate emmisions average means.

Steve Ebels_3

I have to think

If the unit doesn't have a condensate drain of some type on it, no condensing is taking place. Usually, and I have to say that I don't know the particulars of corn, efficiencies of over 86-87% dictate that there will be condensation in the exhaust stream at some point. Call me a skeptic. Maybe I should live in Missouri with Hot Rod so I could say "Show Me".

Ron Schroeder_3

you have to know

that just as soon as your electric boiler is up and running, the electricrates will climb to match the oil prices due to the increased demand that you just contributed to. Oil can be purchased from a number of competing suppliers. Electricity is usually distributed by a nameless monopoly.

BTW, electricity is just too valuable a comodity to waste it on resistance heating, IMO.

THP_6

Show Me

The unit in the above picture has 3 years on it and the chimney connector is galvanized pipe. It has just started to pit the chimney connector piping on the inside when I cleaned it this year. So that and running less than a 300*F stack temp at full tilt puts it easily in the 80% plus rate. Some of the pitting is the result of fly ash setting in the flue pipe. This unit is also at idle from Sept. to winter. Also at idle from April to July making only domestic hot water.

pitman9

Pellets

We're looking at a pellet stove to supplement the oil fired Buderus. The sales guy started at 93%. Frankly I don't think that's possible w/o condensing. Data I've seen indicates most of these stoves are in the low 80% range. Still pretty decent when the cost is about $8.75 per 100# at around 8,200 btu/pound.

I was quoted $2.79 for oil today in upstate NY. We should be able to save about $125-$150 per 100 gallons of oil we cna cut back.

WPH2205

I agree with Tony. There is NO WAY it takes 88 lbs. of anthracite to give you 100,000 btu's. According to my calculations, one ton of Anthracite coal delivers 25,000,000 btu's. That's 25 million. Take 25,000,000 divided by 2000 lbs.(one ton), and you get 12,500 btu's per pound. 100,000 btu,s. divided by 12,500 btu,s per pound equals 8 pounds of coal. With a ton of anthracite going for about $120.00, that works out to about 6 cents a pound. 6 cents times 8 pounds equals 48 cents for 100,000 btu's. Not bad.

Steve Ebels_3

I'll bet that

They're missing a decimal in the Heating Helper. Makes sense to me. I was also curious about the amount of wood to deliver 100,000 btu's but just reprinted what was in the book.

Ted_11

distribution the key

If you really want to get your moneys worth out of a condensing boiler then you have to design the distribution system to be able to heat the building with water at or below 140º. So don't bother with the condensing boiler if you are retro fitting to a baseboard hot water system, you won't get the payback

Ted

Tony_23

Don't bet on that

I'm not alone here in saying that's just not so. I have retrofit more Ultras to existing bbd systems than I have designed into new builds or virgin systems. I'm here to tell you that savings to my customers run 35-50%. You can spout all the technical data you want at me. When you understand and acknowledge reality you will awaken.

Bbd doesn't HAVE TO run @ 180 ALL the time. Only when at design conditions and when it is designed for 180 at design. And then it's usually oversized besides.
Ex: I have a bbd retrofit with the max outlet set for 140. I told them I'd come and adjust it up if needed. They never asked, even when it was -20. Typically, design here is 0 ODT with 180 water. Just because the old CI ran at 180, or thereabouts, doesn't mean it HAD to.

I have found the best policy is to keep an open mind and pay attention

Matt_32

Correction

I need to make a clarification on the eff. number that I posted the other day. I called my rep. and hit him up about the eff. number. He said that the combustion efficiency is in the high 80's and the 95%+ number that I previously mentioned is the ratio of corn to ash after combustion.
It is amazing though, how complete a burn these units complete. On a 24 hr. period at maximum fire the unit will automatically dump 3 small hockey puck size wafers about 3/8" thick into the ash drawer. To me that is amazing considering it is burning about 2 bushels (112 lbs.) of corn in a 24 hr period.
Regards,
Matt

Dave_41

Right on Tony

I have heard it for years now "they will not condense with high return temps" BULL PUCKY!! We sell several different types of condensing boilers and I have stood in total amazment watching a boiler supplying 180* water to a baseboard system with 164* returns running a steady stream of water out of the condensate drain. You can spout all the "why it won't work" at me you want then go watch one work and come back and try and tell me again that it "won't" work. Our flue analisers usually give us between 90 and 92% at these temps. On lower returns like low temp bbs or radiant most of these little miracles will top out at around 96%. Last winter we replaced a cast power vent boiler that had frozen during a power outage with a condensing boiler, we saved the HO one complete tank of LP for the season. On bbs or radiant, they are all we will install. Never put one on an old system where there will be rust in the pipes as those small passages will plug right up!!!!!!!!!!

Dave

Floyd_15

I agree....

it is totally amazing to watch the condensated rip out of the Ultra boilers and punch up return temps. that are well above 140.....Also, it is amazing to see how much heat you can get out of a boiler that just runs at a rate as to match the load.

Bob Sweet

Not to beat a dead horse but

my experience is the same, Have installed a few Ultra's on BB systems and the customer's have recieved 30% savings on fuel bills, with supply temps at 160*- returns at 140 ish. The old 180* needed to make a BB system perform doesn't hold true. And condensation is rolling out the tube.