Condensing point, modulating boilers and outdoor reset

Aidan (UK)

Everyone does it. I've been called worse. ;-)

Jay said the same thing 2 minutes before me, although I don't think his reply was there when I started typing. We're all singing from the same song sheet, I'm just a few bars behind the rest of the choir.

RS_2

Condensing point, modulating boilers and outdoor reset

Can someone clarify or verify the following:
1) Condensing boilers need to output water at no more than 140 degrees or else their efficiency suffers. This renders, for example,a 90% AFUE condensing boiler not significantly better than an 82% atmospheric when used with baseboards which require 185 degree water.
2) Modulating boilers while advantageous offer a very long, over 12 years if you're not plaged by any repairs, payback.
3) Outdoor reset is another fad with a long payback that is not worth it especially when used with 185 degree baseboard.

RoosterBoy

here is some of my thoughts ,one is that i dont even know if i will be here in 12 years...however i am reasonably certain that the cost of fuel is unlikely to diminish in anyway in the near future...therefore i might be more inclined to consider if 185degree base board will provide me the comfort i would aspire to that would be comming my way in the future...as i really am not totally enamoured with the idea of making more money to pay fuel companies, i sorta am inclined to wonder if thier might not be some other alternatives....

*~/:)

Mark Walnicki_3

Random thoughts

1. No idea, probably.

2. Haven't taken the time to calculate the payback/cost recovery time of a modulating boiler, but I would think that if a boiler is being replaced, and the occupants are planning to move in 2-3 years, they're probably not going to realize the cost savings of a higher efficiency boiler. And just because it's a higher efficiency boiler, not every house will recognize fuel savings unless the house and system have been properly assessed and the appropriately sized boiler and control system have been installed.

My opinion is that a high efficiency boiler should be viewed as only one part of an overall plan for the structure to become more energy efficient, whether it be adding insulation, reducing infiltration, replacing windows, installing setback thermostats, lowering thermostat settings, whatever.

3. I don't think ODR is a fad that is not worth it. In many cases it can be a very effective, money saving control strategy. But like anything else, it has to be applied to the system properly. There is no one size fits all control strategy, each job must be approached, assessed, and designed based not only on the customer's system, but also on their desires, expectations and budget.

Joannie

Condensing, Modulating & Outdoor Reset

1) The efficiency of condensing appliance does depend on entering water temperature. However, I don't think I've ever seen a true condensing piece of equipement that went down to 82% at higher water temperatures. They are still more efficient than conventional, atmospheric units, even with higher water temperatures, because they are almost always sealed combustion, pre-mixed combustion systems, which are more efficient. So, yes, temperature makes a difference, but they still beat atmospheric units, even with high temperatures.

2) I don't know what the payback time on a modulating boiler would be. I do that when a modulating boiler modulates, it uses less gas, and is less likely to short-cycle. It helps greatly with system efficiency.

3) I doubt that outdoor reset is a fad. In fact, I think the technology is growing, including indoor temperature feedback. The most efficient system will match the heat sent to the system to the heat leaving the system. Outdoor reset helps to achieve this. (And if you have baseboard that is sized/rated for 185°F, that was done to heat the space when the weather is at its worst. It doesn't mean it won't heat it with cooler water while it is warmer outside.)

As others have noted, condensing, modulating and outdoor reset are three tools that are used to make a system effficient. You have to think in terms of the system.

Ike Gatlin

me again..

1. AFUE is rated at 180 degrees. If a boiler carries an AFUE of 93% that means at 180 degrees. A condensing boiler, operating in a "real world" application operates at a temperature lower than 180 degrees. At this point the efficiency goes up. Some manufacturers will publish a "low temperature efficiency, Lochinvar publishes an efficiency of 98% at 120 degree operating temperature.

2. Think of modulation in a boiler as the gas pedal in your car. Pushing the accelerator to the floor every time you want to make the car go, is not the most efficient way to gain gas mileage. The input rate on your boiler is the same way. Modulation allows the boiler to match its input to the given requirement. It doesn’t "floor it" every time you need a little heat.

3. I/O reset is far from a fad. Your base board does not need 185 degree water when its 55 degrees outside does it? Again I/O reset allows you to match the output of the boiler to the condition at a given time frame. As far as pay back, ASHRAE is developing a "standard" to determine to means of measuring this pay back. You have to be a rocket scientist to apply the means.

Ike

Unknown

AFUE

is tested at 120° return and 140° supply temp.

Noel

Ike Gatlin

honest mistake

I stand corrected... Noel is absolutely right.

Efficiency will drop slightly in a condensing boiler as the water temperature is increased. Does it drop to the 80% range? No.

Ike

OK... nobody is calling me on the phone, so let me expand...

The KNIGHT heating boiler is AFUE rated at 93% 120 in-140 out.
The Knight heating boiler is 90% thermal efficent 160 in- 180 out.

R. Kalia_6

Too much is made of "Payback". Unforunately most of us homeowners are only interested in saving money, especially as we'll move in 5 years. As a result, almost all US homes have the Big Three defects:

(a) no TRVs

(b) boiler output double what is needed

(c) bang-bang heating, which creates large temperature swings.

In my experience, the first/easiest/cheapest step is putting in TRVs, which adds comfort. After that, eliminating bang-bang using either condensing boilers or mixing valves improves comfort further and saves some money too.

But yes, condensing boilers and baseboard are not an ideal match if the only point is to save money. Modulation is nice technology but probably doesn't save much money; get a non-oversized boiler and that will provide part of the same benefit.

Unknown

#2; If you're doing a radiant system and using a modulating/condensing boiler eliminates external mixing, payback can begin on day one. Just to throw that out there. The bump in boiler cost is offset by saving the mixing hardware.

3. outdoor reset gets more and more effective the larger the available temperature range you have. If you need 185 at design, you're looking at a 45 degree temperature spread; that's big stuff, and I've personally seen a system cut its fuel bill by double digits percentage by doing nothing but installing a cheap reset control on the boiler. Plus, what it will do for your comfort is stunning.

jerry scharf_3

RS,

Sounds like many of the comments that float around without much substantiation. These have been discussed before, but let's do the numbers again.

1 A) "regular" boilers require "boiler protection" to prevent condensing, which will eat up the boiler and flue in short order. This means that every time the boiler fires up, it first has to heat itself, then it gets to heat the house. With the fact that boilers are normally oversized (bigger is better, safer...), the number of times the boiler starts up increases, especially during the spring and fall when loads are lower and so the heat is satisfied sooner. Condensing boilers on the other hand have almost no startup loss.

1 It's not the source temperature that counts for a boiler, it's the return temperature. So the 185F number would really be 165 in a nominal baseboard system. That 185 you quote is for the "design temperature" which is the coldest hours of the coldest day of the year. This means that much of the time you "need' lower supply temperatures which means lower return temperatures. Outdoor reset does exactly this, and thus can have a condensing boiler condensing through most of the times when it's not really cold. As has been nicely proved by one manufacturer's specs, the condensing boilers do not ever drop to atmospheric boiler effeciency levels.

1 C) Condensing boilers have their own external air supply as well as venting. This means that you don't need to add cold air into the boiler room to supply the boiler with air. So many people like to say that heat generated in the boiler room goes into the house, so it's not lost. What about hat constant supply of outside air in there? This is not unique to condensing boilers, but is a factor against a "regular boiler"

2 A) Payback is a very complex function, and the boiler only plays a piece of that. So doing a boiler upgrade by itself may help a great deal or not much depening on how the entire heating system and house interact. Insulation is always the starting point for best payback. The you have to ask yourself about energy cost futures. Natural gas prices have increased about 75% in one year out our way (not to me thankfully.) That projected 12 year payback just dropped to under 7 years. We are still near the 1970 inflation adjusted oil price, so we're certainly not at the top of fuel price range.

2 As for being plagued by repairs, it's too early to tell what the lifetime of these units are. They have been around in Europe for a couple decades, so we know that the ones build back then are solid. But that really doesn't help much. It's like buying a new car, you don't know how your car will hold up. You will know how you did and how the car did on average after 5+ years of ownership, but not before.

3 A) Outdoor reset is a simple method of trying to match the supply water temperature with load by measuring the outside temperature. This is a complex relationship, with radiation output curves and chimney effect losses being nonlinear, so it's only a rough guess (don't throw away your thermostat.) But it is certainly not a fad. When coupled with a condensing/modulating boiler, it can greatly boiler cycling during much of the heating system. Also, and mentioned earlier, the reset lowers return temperature and greating improves efficiency in the shoulder season. So your boiler will be more efficient rather than less during these times.

3 Outdoor reset isn't just about savings. It's also about improved comfort. By having longer "softer" heating cycles, the room temperature swing is reduced and comfort increased. In a house with too much radiation (often by adding insulation/windows,) this can be a real benefit.

Hope this helps, jerry

Aidan (UK)

Condensing boilers, outdoor reset, etc..

" 1) Condensing boilers need to output water at no more than 140 degrees or else their efficiency suffers."

Not quite, they need the return to be at 60 degC (sorry, it's late & I can't find my conversion tables)or less. I don't know what the efficiency figures might be under non-condensing conditions. You could look at the UK's SEDBUK figures. These are the Overall Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers UK. They are supposed to be an assessment of the efficiency measured under working conditions and over an entire heating season. It only lists UK marketed boilers, so I doubt that you'll find your one listed. Some familiar boiler names will feature. The test method is explained somewhere. However, 82% does seem low to me. A condensing boiler will always be more efficient than a non-condenser, they have more heat exchanger area.

" 2) Modulating boilers while advantageous offer a very long, over 12 years if you're not plagued by any repairs, payback."

I don't know. I haven't seen any studies of payback times. Do you know where these figures came from? 12 years seems too long to me. Payback calculations usually have to assume a steady fuel price, or maybe a small annual percentage increase. Recent events may have suggested to you that such an assumption is not valid. Fuel prices seem likely to go up a lot.

"3) Outdoor reset is another fad with a long payback that is not worth it especially when used with 185 degree baseboard."

See comments about "bang bang" heating above. A thermostat has only two outputs, On or Off. These usually equate to "Dad, it's too hot" and "Dad, it's too cold" with a short, transient, comfortable interlude in between. The radiators are usually either stone cold or scaldingly hot.

A temperature sensor has an infinite number of outputs, which can cause a motorized valve tick to and fro until the flow temperature is exactly right. It's comfortably warm when you wake up, it stays comfortably warm all day and no one mentions the heating. It's neither too hot nor too cold and they don't even notice it. You should try it.

You need to have an input from a room temperature sensor, as well as outdoor temperature. As someone has said, you could probably run the 185 degreee baseboards at 120, 130, 140, 150, etc., for most of the heating season. Outdoor reset or a modulating burner could do this.

Guy_6

efficiency

The condensing boilers that I was associated with had a posted efficiency of 92%. That was based on 180 supply water and a 20 degree delta (160 return).
The efficiency went up from there as the return temp dropped and the boiler condensed more.

Steve Ebels_3

Simply put..............

Number 1. False

Number 2. False

Number 3. False

1.Saying a condensing boiler suffers an efficency loss at high supply temps is a half truth. The efficiency does drop with higher temps but the simple facts are that with modualting water temp and modulating burner input those conditions are rarely seen. Systems can usually be setup for greater delta T that will allow condensation at 160+ supply temps. Bear in mind that the worst a condensing boiler will do (87-88%+) is still better than the best non-condenser (86-87% max)

2. Assume you are going to replace a boiler. Boiler NC (non-condensing) costs $4,000 to install and Boiler C, condensing costs $8,000. Are you looking at paying back the total price or the difference between the two. Obviously looking at returning the total price will lenghten the payback time. BUT, you can't look at it that way because you're replacing or purchasing a boiler either way. You have to consider only the difference in cost.

3. If whoever is selling you a condensing boiler is not recommending OD reset, find another contractor or salesman or whatever. He doesn't understand what's going on to be blunt. Realizing that the lower the water temp is, the more condensation you can make happen, it should be obvious that a condenser without it is handicapped from the start.
I've seen too many cases where ODR has saved 10-15% on standard boilers with no other changes to the system.

RS_2

Let's hear it from the manufacturers

OK, will the manufacturer who will guarantee that their condensing boiler efficiency will not be beaten by an atmostpheric boiler under these circumstances please let us know who you are.

JB_7

outdoor reset.

JERRY Very nice informitive passage excuse me for intrudeing here,while on the topic of modulation maybe you could clear up a couple of fuzzy areas for me. I have a munchkin 80m supplying 3 zones of baseboard

(1) the boiler fires up comes up to high fire and chases the load until it reaches set water temp at which point it tapers down to low flame for a short period and shuts down,Is this modulation?

(2)If i use the Tekmar 260 for out door reset will I lose this so called modulation feature
I appreciate all comments BB

Tony_23

Stubborn aren't you ?

There is NO WAY an atmospheric boiler will EVER even meet the efficiency of a condensing, modulating boiler.

Get your head out of what you THINK you know, and listen to the people who have the experience.

Learning something new will only hurt for a little bit

Plumdog_2

A fad?

I've seen pneumatic outdoor reset on boilers installed in the 1950's; this fad is slow to die if don't work.

RS_2

Seeking the facts

Tony,

I came here to learn. So teach me, which manufacturers do you know will guarantee your confident assertion?

RS_2

Payback

The price difference equals the ADDITIONAL time needed for payback. However, that's only a part of the story because the additional dollars for a more efficient system could have been invested thereby INCREASING the payback period. So is the rate of return on your investment greater than the percent of efficiency gained? If yes, the more efficient boiler is a waste of cash. Example, if you can invest your money in new tools for your business and get a 15% return on it then you would you would better off using your cash this way than spending it on a more efficient boiler that will save you 7% your heating bill.

RoosterBoy

Howdy again...

let me help a little bit more,snow hit the ground today,reaffirming that this summer thing is an illusion. right now iwe have so much work to do that there are no easy decisions to make...out of 11 places,9 of them are radiant sog and or gypcrete. this basically means that 185 degree water really....isnt a requirement. Heat however IS.

many other peoples lives are in effect affected by certain choises made along the way here on out.during this next month or so only a very small amount of heat needs to be distributed throughout the radiant slabs.say 1/10 of when the Hawk is here.the outside temps change daily one cannot know with certainty anything other than it will not be getting 65 again for months. during this time the fluids circulating thru the slabs are relatively low...mostly because it only needs to be maintained at working mans temp of about 56 or so unless there is a need for floor materials and/or cabinet counter tops being made on the site.

the water is basically using information based on outside temps and "indoor" temps and supply and return water at or near the targeted temps to maintain 56 degrees. these temps could be being made by oil fired condensing boilers, however....they arent. no, instead they are being made by boilers that basically like to see 140. i could reset them up and down however there are some minor technicalities with that ...i could setpoint them at 100 and turn a blind eye to the destruction that would eventually ensue.however that would be doing something that to me seems criminal.i could use pump stradgey to turn off the pump shut down the system and refire the boiler watching with a queasy inward feeling as the thing goes from near icecube to plenty warm however that wouldnt work for me either...a modulating boiler or a Moderating boiler burner could make my life alot easier during this time period. a bunch of pinner boilers would work fairly well also,then these could be staged and as winter progressed they would work little by little and get the job done without heating anything much over the lowest possible water temp required...only one of the jobs has a modulating boiler,it is Propane ,it is on the largest job, the beauty of that is it will hold its own while we have a chance to get the rest of the home trimmed into shape. it has its own control and will make temp heat realatively easy to deal with. nothing terribly complex.

the mainstay as it were of that home is an oilfired Buderus 215 5 section maily because it can deal with certain water temps if it must. boiler protection where we live isnt a good idea its the only idea *~/:) The variables are many with any comparison with the Triangle tube prestige and the Buderus. how we will contend with a description at this momment is this,the modulator is a slave to the differential set point ,in a stand alone sort of way:) as certain heat emmitters are bought on line slowly and certainly the modulator will lose ground to its big brother. as it gets colder outside the modulator will also have to call on help to deal with things.

to be honest with you ,were it all baseboard and could hold against the cold the modulator would be benificial ,providing that distribution and the required comfort level could be maintained.this is what i meant by "other alternatives..." when the emmitters are high temp you may need more of them at a lower temp and spaced different, that way the btus are distributed to points of higher heat loss to balance the required water temps lower. the fuel savings sorta works like this consider a wheel, and a small motor.....by use of a set of gears one can get the wheel to turning gradually faster by use of gears as it overcomes friction...every step or gear change the wheel powered by the same motor increases its speed...the motor didnt change ...the wheel is the same... everything Shifts as it were. now say i wanted some light ok? well if i had an on off switch that turned a bulb on and off every time the wheel made an entire rotation, by proper application of gears ,i could soon have a wheel Flying along like a buzz saw turning the light on and off so fast that the light would seem like it was on continually. in a way that is similar to the mechanics of your heating system on "modulation". out door reset is some what like having a speedometer...it basically says well,things are going this fast...on your particular speedometer is a hash mark to let you know When to shift gears... sorry...i too must shift gears as i have a heck of alot of work to do tomorrow...

jerry scharf_3

combustion basics

RS,

The dynamics of an atmospheric natural gas boiler preclude it from ever reaching the efficiency of a modern condensing/modulating boiler. I will try to cover some of the basics of the differences in combustion to help you understand why this is so. I am not a combustion expert like Timmie or Jim Davis, so there may be corrections or additions.

For the c/m boiler

the air and gas are fully mixed before entering the combustion chamber.

The gas is metered in response to the air flow, so the mixture ratio is much more consistent.

The mixture is sent into the combustion chamber under pressure, allowing the flame front to extend into the chamber while stil having excellent combustion consistency.

Because the combustion is under positive pressure, the burn tube can have much smaller openings. This allows for higher radiant components in the heat exchanger and higher efficincy. Read about the Viessmann vitodens burner as one example. This is impossible in an atmospheric boiler.

Not one of these things requires condensing return water temperatures.

jerry

jerry scharf_3

ROI is fictitious prognostication

I've done this many times for various things and never been right. It's not that I'm bad at it, it that the world has a nasty habit of changing. To do an ROI, you need to make assumptions about many things that you have no control over. Whether you choose them to be steady state or change by some function, it's a safe bet the world will not operate that way.

I have the bad manners of reviewing ROI numbers (mine and others) 3, 5 and 10 years later. Mine are a bit better than average (remember that almost 2/3rds of people interviewed said that they had above average intelligence,) but my crystal ball is not much clearer than others.

People always crow over the things they get right, but don't mention the things they don't get. In 1978 I said that CMOS chip technology wasn't interesting in any but low power applications because it was too slow. (hint, every microprocessor for 20 years has been a CMOS chip.) It's my reality check whenever I'm ready to dislocate my shoulder patting myself on the back.

So make you assumptions and get your numbers. Use those numbers to make your decision. It just seemd like you have an argumentative way that isn't so appreciated on this site.

I just want to get the information that I believe to be the most accurate out there.

jerry

Tony_23

Manufacturers

I don't need some paper guarantee for confidence. If their equipment doesn't work as advertised I won't use it again, and I'm sure no one else will either. The market will ferret out the charlatans.

I have used condensing, modulating boilers and non-condensing, modulating boilers and atmospheric low-mass and high-mass boilers. With and without ODR. I know the difference because I have paid attention with eyes and mind wide open. I'm not stuck in the same ol' rut.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is. We just moved and one of the first things I did was rip out the F.A. "system". I'm installing an Ultra 105 and radiant with ODR. The second floor will get radiant ceiling next year, but for now is getting a couple of recovered CI rads.

I could do bbd and atmospheric boiler for 1/2 price. Why do you suppose I don't ?

Constantin

I doubt anyone will guarantee it...

... mainly because they don't have to.

All they have to do is point to the tousands of installations out there where people have saved a ton of gas. Mike T. in MO went from an 80% AFUE atmospheric boiler that was running great to a Viessmann Vitodens and on a degree-day adjusted basis saved 43.6% fuel. Other contractors have verifiable savings of 35%+ for their customers.

The simple truth is that at worst a condensing boiler in non-condensing mode will perform as well as a non-condensing boiler will ever come close to. After all, most non-condensing boilers are specicially protected against high effieciency to prevent flue gases from condensing inside the boiler or inside thr chimney. The answer to your question, BTW, is in the flue gas temperatures, which are much lower for condensing boilers than for the non-condensing variety. The energy being converted inside the boiler has to go somewhere and usually its better to have the energy go into the home, not up the flue.

Also, have a look at a weather chart for your region. Note the seasonality of the temperatures and how the peak highs and lows are the exception, not the rule. Even if you use baseboard, hydro-air, or other "high temp" emitters, they're only going to needing 180°F hot water on a few days a year. Or, you insulate your house properly so that the emitter temperatures can be lower all the time. Either way, most of the heating season, a properly-installed condensing system can take advantage of outdoor/indoor reset and other techniques to significantly lower your gas bills.

Jay_17

Simply put

One thing to consider, the condensing boilers exhaust is at a significantly lower temperature than a NC boiler. This by itself should indicate that there is a larger percent of the available fuel energy being directed into the water. This holds true for all operating conditions.
Jay

Aidan (UK)

Let's hear it from the manufacturers

This is a contractors' forum. I don't know if any boiler manufacturers have a representative here. You'd need a manufacturers' forum, or you'd have to contact them directly.

You can account for 100% of the energy that goes into a boiler. Most of the inefficiency is caused by the heat losses in the flue gases. You don't need any sort of technical education to realise that you're throwing away less energy if you can contrive to make the flue gases cooler, without corroding the back out of the boiler. It just wasn't practical a few years back. It's achievable now and you'd be misguided not to exploit this proven technology.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Bravo Aiden!

That's exactly why I consider the flue gas temp sensor I installed in my Vitodens the most important!

Flue temp is so damned close to supply temp that during modulation the flue gas temp I can measure is significantly lower than the supply temp reported by the boiler. Am told that this is "experimental error". I both agree and disagree 51% or 49% of the time...

The 51% says that there is some sort of connection between the radiant burner and the emitters. The 49% comes from traditional physics.

Steve Ebels_3

Condensation proof

We just fired up a modulating condenser today. The condensate quit running when the RETURN temp reached 163*F. Supply at that point was 187*.

How often do you need 180+ water? Not very often.

So how much time will the boiler spend in condensing mode? Most of it's life!!

BTW, efficiency was running 88.7% at 190* supply temp. That will be the MINIMUM efficiency for this boiler. Most of the heating season will be well over 90% and at low firing rates.

Steve Ebels_3

Not uncommon Mike

Flue gases on the one we fired up today were running about 3-5* LESS than supply water temp.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Aidan

Please excuse the misspelling!

Kevin__Flynn

Guy

Not to hurt your feelings, but the posted efficiency of 92% listed on the literature of the condensing boiler that you were associated with (HTP) was an AFUE efficiency.

This, Guy, is based on 140 supply and 120 return under constant load conditions. As has always been the AFUE test procedure. I'm happy to forward the ASHRAE Guidlines that describe the procedure.

The fact is that mother nature and physics say that you can not begin to extract usable latent heat from flue gasses until or unless the water passing by the hot flue gasses by way of the heat exchanger is below the dewpoint temp of the fuel being used. (N.G.=136, Oil = 117)These numbers are based on perfect Stoichiometric (spelling?) combustion. So typically the dewpoints are even lower.

Not until you begin to extract any of the latent heat, will you be able to achieve higher than 89%.


Kevin Flynn

Joannie

Laars Will

I work for Laars Heating Systems. We would certainly guarantee that our condensing products (even the ones that don't modulate) would be higher efficiency at all return temperatures than our atmospheric products. That's a no-brainer.

I can't think of a manufacturer that would not be able to guarantee the same. The combustion systems to achieve condensing conditions are what makes them more efficient, even if they are not running in condensing mode. It would seem to me that any pre-mixed gas-air system (which every condensing unit I'm familiar with uses) would have to be more effiecient than atmospheric. Just the action of pre-mixing alone makes a difference.

So, there you have it in writing from me.

Joan Mishou

Laars Heating Systems

RS_2

That is a point well worth considering. After all, the heat must go somewhere but if the condensing boiler is operating for a longer period of time that could mean more fuel consumption in the long run. Any thoughts on that?

Constantin

Yes, but...

... a condensing boiler is capable of operating at a much lower firing rates due to the modulating gas valves typically found on them. Thus, it can loaf along at 20% of output just as efficiently as when it is running at 100%. It can take advantage of low return water temperatures and does not have to guard against flue gas condensation like non-condensing boilers do.

Cliff Brady

More efficently at low flame

A flame modulated down to 20% has the same heat exchanger area as when the flame is at 100% and more of the heat therefore gets extracted from a lower flame then from the full flame. Modulation is a large part of the efficency of the condensing/mudulation boiler.

Unknown

ONLY on condensers?

Where did you learn that?

Laars boilers were modulating in the 1980s, among others.

Check your facts.

Noel

Constantin

Thanks for the correction

You're right, so I've modified the above. Does this meet your quality standards?

Unknown

Just returning the favor.

You've felt the need to correct me a few times.


It isn't my standards that count. The truth is the standard I use. When you repeatedly make up things and type them on the wall, the truth suffers.


Noel

Constantin

Hey Noel,

I thought we were here to learn, not to get into odd online shoving matches. IIRC, some of my corrections of your postings were just as spot on as yours was today. Does that mean that you make the truth suffer also?

Peace.

RS_2

Laars Performance

I haven't heard much about Laars. Is Laars a real player or a wannabe? Does anyone have experience with the Laars? What can you say about their reliability and performance?