Some questions re 2 pipe steam

David Sutton_6

i want to offer my prayers and hopes for your little girl, that things will happen in her life to make things better!!


I dont belive that PEX has been aproved for the use in a steam application. Moving the boiler can be done if properly piped in. as far as choice in fuels thay both have there pro's and con's you need to check pricing, more chocies with oil.
as far as the recomending weekly flushing well thats a must! as well as having the boiler cleaned after install and skimmed off a week or so afterwards.

there are alot of great steam guys out there you just have to keep looking....
Where are you located?
And again i want to offer my prayers to you and your children and hopes for a smooth ride ahead...David

DennisK

2 Pipe Steam system boiler replacement

I would appreciate some expertise here. I have an old coal fired boiler and two pipe steam system and am pretty confused. I have tried to do my research, gotten some books from this site, want to get a real pro to do the work. I did get Trethewey Bros out here (from this old House), and in this area, they have the reputation of being very good, though high end on price. Actually, I'm perfectly willing to pay for quality, I just want it done right. I have spoken with some people from this site who are local, I'm even more confused.


The first point of confusion I have is related to location in the basement. The current boiler is in the middle of the basement with a large flue connection running across. I had someone out that I found from this site, who is not a plumber, say that he could move the boiler next to the chimney...sounds great, but no one else has said that he could do that! Is that possible? I don't want to compromise the system.

Another is the use of PEX for supply piping (which Trethewey did not recomment). Is this Okay, or is that what I would get by using a non-plumber?

The Trethewey contract stated that they:
"recommends frequent weekly flushing of new steam boiler to ensure removal of sediment and oil. Trethewey Bros., Inc. may require power flushing, at the owner’s expense if boiler water cannot be kept clean"

Exactly what does this mean? Is this their way of getting around the need to properly clean the system with a new boiler? Is this okay?

I really just want this done right, not trying to skimp here. I spoke to one guy from this site, seemed like a good guy, but he wasn't a plumber (an oil guy), and that worries me, as I am converting to natural gas and want to make sure that I have someone to take care of the system for the long haul (apologies to him, won't mention names). Another fellow from this site was a plumber, but we didn't get off too well, he seemed a bit scattered, and his price was higher than Trethewey (which again, in this area is considered, rightly or wrongly, as the most expensive, but the gold standard in terms of quality)

I hope that I'm not offending anyone here. It really is hard to find good professionals! On top of everything else, my 14 year old daughter was diagnosed with cancer last year , so my drive to get this done gets interupted, so I just want someone to take care of this.

I couldn't help seeing the notes regarding Mr. Milne's wife. I lost my wife to cancer 6 years ago, leaving me with 8 year old triplets. I just wanted you to know that, as impossible as it seems, their are brighter times ahead, you just have to put one foot in front of another until life pulls you back in.

David

Steamhead (in transit)

PEX on steam?

I bet whoever said that wanted to convert your system to hot-water. You don't want to do that!

Unless your radiators have shutoffs on the return as well as the steam connections, and air vents on each radiator, this is probably a Vapor system. Vapor was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best systems out there. You need to find someone who really understands this type of system. Have you found any manufacturer's info on any of the system's hardware, other than the boiler?

I don't like long flue pipes either. It should be possible to move the boiler as long as it's piped correctly. But it might be easier to use a new boiler that doesn't need a chimney, venting instead out the side wall of the house.

You need to compare prices per BTU between oil and gas. Don't just take the gas company's advertised price per therm (100,000 BTU is a therm) and compare this to oil. First you have to add on all the taxes and fees the gas company doesn't tell you about. Then, since a gallon of oil contains 140,000 BTU you need to factor this in. In many areas oil is cheaper per BTU than gas. Katrina muddied the picture up but I expect oil to still be cheaper when things settle down.

I'm not a big fan of This Old House because they think old houses should be handled like new houses. My opinion is that if you want a new house, build it from scratch and leave the old ones old. Some of TOH's books and articles advocate tearing out steam systems (and I'll bet Trethewey wrote some of this drivel), which shows they don't understand steam at all. Try subscribing to Old-House Journal, especially since Dan writes for them sometimes.

Also try the Find a Professional page of this site, where you can find someone who can do your job right.

DennisK

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm located just outside of Boston
David

David Sutton_6

There are

alot of good steam men out there, i,m sure someone from this site will be happy to look at it. you out of my range. i am in western mass. keep us posted...David

DennisK

I keep trying. I think that I definately need a plumber? (and not an oil guy), but I'm not certain of that. The oil guy wanted to use the PEX, I assume for the connections from the cold water to the boiler fill.

I honestly just want a professional that will do the job, guarantee the results, and do all of the stuff that I've read from Dan's books. In the meantime, I'm at least learning a bit about how these systems work, and it really is pretty cool. If you own an old house, you want to restore the house, not remake it into something new. On the other hand, it sure does cold here in Boston....

David Sutton_6

yes this is true

my house was built in 1780 . i know the temps there pretty good i lived in leominster and in quincy (germantown) long time ago late 70's

oilmen who do steam are just as good as plumbers who do steam if they both care about what they are doing. as in both trades there are some good and some not so good. start a post that reads boston steam man wanted

ed wallace

2 pipe steam

if this is who i think it is i did not recomended pex tubing i did suggest moving boiler across basement due to lenth of flue pipe i was concerned about condensation in flue pipe i also said the chiney would need lining yes i am an oil man but also darn good on steam system the free boiler from gas company will be to small by 1/2 i at least took measurements and ran the numbers and was told i was more expensive then tretheway bros.

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Unknown

As David said

I truly hope your daughter gets well soon , and I am very sorry about your wife . Yes , brighter times are ahead and I am amazed at your spirit .

David , is there any way to take some digital pics and post them here ? And maybe a rough estimate on how far the boiler needs to be moved to get closer to the chimney ? Steam systems are a little tricky to relocate , but with a good company doing the project it should work out fine .

The power flushing and skimming is a must for a new steam boiler . On average it takes us maybe 4 to 6 total hours to clean a new residential steam boiler fully . That also depends on how much crud accumulated in the returns .

Stay well clear of the plumber who would use pex on the supply piping . Insist on the use of steel for all the piping above the boiler . As far as selecting a good contractor , does Trethewey Bros. have pics of past steam installs you can look at ? Maybe some customers who had their steamer replaced that you could call ? Did they recommend a boiler choice yet ? There's a few things we can point out also that can be incorporated into the contract to insure the boiler steams properly - like an oversized boiler header and equalizer ( the instructions state the minimum size ) , purge station on the returns , adding or changing main vents .....

David Sutton_6

Brookline

i would highly recomend Ed Wallace, i have been reading his post for a very long time and have seen pictures of his work, you will do right by speaking with ED......David

clammy

not offended

I have worked in the plumbing heating and a/c business for over 24 years and i have seen more oil guys do the right thing in respect to replacement of steam boiler then have seen plumbers .But as in all cases there are always badseeds but in my gut i know what i've seen and i know i seen more badly replaced steam gas boiler then i have seen of oil and i don't think it was theoil guy who replaced them gas steammers ? .It doesn't matter what your title is plumber oil man hvac there are the good and
bad mechinics from ever walk of life , request pics before and after and clients comments on how there systemreplacement went and how well is there system is working now . Look for the contractor who seem to be the most knoweledgeable and asurred to what has to be done and isn't to wishes washy and doesn't have manicured hands and nails cause then you just got a talker peace clammy

ed wallace

2 pipe steam

I guess brookline didnt like the answers he got from here

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Unknown

Ed

I understand you might not get the work , but geez , the man is going through some rough times . Give him the benefit of the doubt - maybe he just dont have the time right now to check the site .

Dan C._2

Whoever puts the boiler in

is the one who sizes it. So the comment about the gas company boiler being 1/2 the size it should be is wrong you can get any size you need. Also I think PANN would be considered the highest price in this area not Trethewey Bros.

DennisK

Thanks for all of the input. Ed, I really did not mean to insult you, I am not a professional at this, I just have to find the right fit. I'm quite sure that you do great work, and by the way, you were not the person that I was talking about when I talked about how expensive the job quoted was, he was a plumber. Anyway, I would like to get the boiler paid for by Keyspan, since I definately want to go to gas (though I understand that the consensus here seems to be for oil).

For everyone...I would love to move the boiler closer to the chimney, but I'm being told that it may not be possible, since all of the returns go to a pit in the middle of the basement. Here's the thing...I know that if I replace the entire system with a zoned hot water (sacriledge)that I can move the system over to the chimney, and run the pipes in ways that will recapture space in the basement. I haven't gotten a quote on this, but if it isn't way more expensive than a new steamer, main vents, repairing all of the steam vents, and putting in new steam vents for those that don't, and putting in a heat exchanger for the hot water system for the third floor (because some contractor ran copper pipes off the steam system, all sloped in the wrong direction, under the floors, behind the walls-bangs like crazy), and it would allow me to finish more of my basement (I have a 14 year old who plays the drums, boy do I need to finish/soundproof my basement), then I may want to consider it. I have a hunch that it will be alot to replace the whole system, so I may stay with this beautiful old steam system, finish what's left of the basement, etc.

David

ed wallace

2 pipe steam

easy desision then just call keyspan out and have them give you a quote they have thier own install crews im sure they know all about steam

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Dan C._2

Ed

Why can't you give him a price to convert it to gas if he doesn't want oil and then you can still get the job

ed wallace

franco

I gave him a price that included the following removal of oil tank and boiler installing a new gas boiler that was properly sized relocating boiler from the pit and putting it by the chimney having a gas line installed by a plumber as it is now flue pipe runs 15 ft across basement doing buried returns across the floor and chimney lining

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Dan C._2

I see