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Ground Source Radiant: need advice

Mark_7
Mark_7 Member Posts: 123
Tom
We're thinking of dealing with ECR DX units but are a little uneasy about putting the copper line set in the ground. But the system really looks like a nice system.

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Comments

  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    I had a request

    New contstruction H.O. wants me to look into heating full radiant house w/ ground source water to water heat pump.

    Looking for advice from some experienced contractors/engineers who have some opinion on suitability for my region (Eastern PA), and expected efficiency gain over condensing gas (Vitodens), Oil Fired (Viessmann). Also How much maintenance can I expect for an open system that pump & dumps into the same well, assuming water filters etc.

    Constants are; Full radiant floor heating in all rooms of home, required water temp of 120 F at design outdoor temp of 0 F, approx 7K sq ft, R-19 wall, R-30 Ceiling constr, also what about domestic.

    So far a few systems I have seen here have a gas water heater w/ flat plate that recieves waste heat for domestic, and a boiler to back up the GSHP.

    I have dabbled a little servicing the ref side of a TETCO water to water GSHP, but the homeowner had just moved in and did not have any history on back-up gas heat usage, previous owner passed away. Worst part was the company is no longer in business, I am glad I did not install that one!!

    One manufacturer I am familiar w/ is Water Furnace.

    Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Geo heat pumps

    Well, I can't comment on the efficiency issue - apples and oranges comparing gas/oil-fired to electric, not knowing your local rates.

    The building envelope criteria- what about the windows- the biggest heat loss and gains in the house? Before designing and sizing any new HVAC system minimize the loads first - $$ spent on the envelope are $$ saved on the HVAC system, and provides lower operating costs for the life of the house.

    Why not consider radiant heating and radiant cooling? At least use the cooling capacity for summer cooling somehow. Using a geothermal system for "heating only" is wasting half the capabilities. I hope a well water flow and temperature test is done, and the environmental issues have been addressed regarding the dump well water quality and temperature. With open systems the key is determining the ground water quality in detail and then adding any treatment required (filtration, softener etc.)

    You will still need a ventilation system- a small ERV or HRV to provide some air changes as well as some "trim" heating/cooling using hydronic coils served from the geothermal heat pump. There are other brands of water to water heat pumps out there, depends who services and supports what brand in your area.
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845


    Thanks for the fast responses

    Lets please assume all steps have been taken to insulate envelope. A/c will be handled w/ Hi Velocity system. I was thinking of radiant cooling, but limited here as humidity usually hits the roof

    8 cents per KWH, oil is approx 2.20 per gallon, propane is who knows where

    Just looking for a first impression based on your experiences

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Good envelope

    OK so if the envelope is high quality, who cares what the outdoor humidity is then? A good envelope is supposed to keep out the bad outdoor climate, isn't it?

    Running an ERV with a dessicant dehumidifier section should be enough to keep the indoor humidity levels below 50% in summer, and that will allow radiant cooling at surface temps of 63F at the lowest. Based on the first post- it sounds like that this might be a staple up system if you need 120F to run the radiant heating. If so, then you cannot use that kind of radiant system for radiant cooling, staple up is way too inefficient.
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    NOT STAPLE UP!!!

    capitalized in case heatboy is watching...

    I ALWAYS use some kind of Thermo-fin on my radiant heating jobs. This one will be U-fin mounted under the subfloor. Temps are elevated due to 0 F design, and turrets on all corners of building. 2- temp system, Most of it will never higher than 90 F through the 4 way valve, but there are some areas that will need more temp. 120 F was a CYA #. This house has a LOT of windows/ doors. 14,000 sq ft living area.

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • bob elmore
    bob elmore Member Posts: 41
    advice

    call dave weidner @ 217-628-3400 weidner refrigeration
    or ed snell @ 217-956-3911 they have both done
    a lot on of this type of installation in central Illlinois
    with great success.
  • Tom_35
    Tom_35 Member Posts: 265
    ECR direct exchange heat pumps

    Cosmo,

    We have installed several ECR direct exchange heat pumps that were the heat source for the radiant floor heating. All have been very successful.

    Don't know if you are familiar with the direct exchange system, but it actually uses the refrigerant lines horizontally or vertically in the ground as opposed to polyethylene piping with water and glycol.

    I don't think that this is the same ECR International that has boilers, but I guess it is possible that they may be tied together. You can go to the Geothermal Heat Pump Cortsortium or Geo-Exchange website for more info on this type of heat pump.

    For the record, open loop heat pump systems tend to be more maintenance oriented than closed loop--water or direct exchange.

    I've been thinking of posting some pics of a job we're doing now with 6 direct exchange systems on it that are all tied to radiant floor heating---trying to work up the nerve.

    I may try to show them to Dave Yates here at ComfortTech and get his opinion before bearing my soul.

    Tom Atchley
    Ft. Smith, AR
  • Steve Ebels_3
    Steve Ebels_3 Member Posts: 1,291
    Cosmo

    GSHP's with radiant are extremely efficient provided you can run your system at less than 110*. That's about the practical limit from what I've been told and it limits you to slab applications usually.

    If you want to talk to someone who knows GSHP's inside and out, get in touch with Dave Mason, a fellow Wallie. He used to do training for Carrier/ClimateMaster products and is about as sharp as they come. E-mail me if you'd like to get in touch with him. I can give you his Phone# and e-mail address. He has a program that will compare all different types of systems and crunch the $$.$$ for you if you can give him a heat loss of the place. He'll also want to know soil types and water table if it's a ground loop type system as opposed to pump&dump.
  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Underfloor system

    Sorry but I disagree, even with plates, any radiant tube system that is installed under a wood subfloor is an inefficient system. If they need those temps due to all the windows, they'd be better off with better windows to reduce the heat losses. Forget I even mentioned radiant cooling in this case.
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    agreed

    I wouldn't have tried radiant cooling unless this was gypcrete job.

    I am still trying to get this system above the subfloor, but the builder is a moron, and as far as "inefficient" tube under the subfloor w/ Thermofin plates is a lot more efficient than a lot of the jobs I have seen. This builder used to ask me why I can't just staple up like the other guys... after explaining things technically to him for the last few jobs I just say it like this.... no plates I walk. Staple up has it's applications, like floor warming but the minimum for floor heating is undefloor plates.

    Problem is that I can't work directly for the customer on every job, and all the builders care about is how long it will take to "finish that damn radiant ****". So it is either do the job and try hard to do it right, or stay home and wonder how to pay the bills......

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • John Felciano
    John Felciano Member Posts: 411
    Geo-radiant

    Climate panel/Quick track installed on top of the subfloor will also alow lower temperatures and will fall withen the operating temperature range for most homes in all but the very coldest climates.

    Were in the process of repiping a exsisting geo/radiant system now where the system uses a combo boiler as a backup/secondary and was piped incorrectly.

    Were also adding aluminum track to about 50% of the system that didn't get track.The temperatures required to do straight joist bay heating are much to high for a geo/radiant.
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    Thanks Tom

    I have been looking for a job to use geothermal. It looks like the copper/ refrigerant buried exchanger systems are the most efficient compared to poly / water systems. In your opinion what is the life span of the copper tubing in soil. In my area unfortunately I have to deal with shale. I guess that I would have to us ethe horizontal approach w/ a sand bed over and under the tube system. The scary thing is that all the houses I am dealing with are limited as far as open ground, and what they have has boku $ landscaping. I would hate the prospect of digging to find a leak.....

    Funny how after so many years w/ Pex I am a little wary of copper!

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    please email me

    Dave Mason's email address. Funny I can't see anyone's email address on the posts...

    Mine is cosmo@dependablephc.com

    Cosmo Valavanis

    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
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