Writing an article

Dale

Tim, on the left in hot tech topics 4th one down is "21 things... " I think most of these would be worth looking at. Also, the Alan Levy book Dan sells has alot of good material on what makes a professional installation.

Unknown

I am looking for input for an

Article on the importance of hiring a professional to do installations and service. I probably know most of the answers but would love some input from all of you here. What are your pet peeves, what about certification, licensing etc? Is a permit process the best answer? If you could change things in your area what would you like to see. I am doing research here so I am not interested in getting into a debate about what is right or wrong just the facts if you will.

Thanks in advance for your input. I would like to quote you on this so identify your self and your area of the world.

Mad Dog_2

Tim, I remember Dan

has a whole thing on this in one of the books. Also Paul Pollets had a through list. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Thanks Dale and Matt but,

what I am looking for is from those who are dealing with these issues on a daily basis. I want to be able to give some good quotes instead of just a list of things. Lists are okay but they make for boring reading sometimes.

I have some I received from e-mails already and they are directed toward typical problems we all face when a non professionalis involved.

Mad Dog_2

Ok Tim

You're looking for "quotable" ideas? Do you mean like little quips and short storys? From the viewpoint of a contractor Or homeowner? MD

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Unknown

Anything will do

but certainly first hand experiences with customers etc. who have had less than professional help. In addition some examples of when a non-professional customer should defintely hire a pro versus doing the job themselves.

Do we necessarily have to have licensing and certification. An example the very code conscious state of Massachusetts does not require a license to service gas equipment. There is a gas fitters license for installing gas piping and venting but nothing for service. Some states have no license requirements at all.

What are some of the nightmares you have run into?

Mad Dog_2

My Brother Bart.....................................

Who runs an investment firm has a great little quip when a potential client complains about the fees he charges: "Sir/ma'am, if you think hiring a professional is expensive, you are correct! However, hiring an amatuer will REALLY cost you money." Oh I have lots of horror stories......gimme some more focus, Tim, and they'll start coming to mind. Mad Dog

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DanHolohan

Lists are boring?

I'm sure glad Moses didn't feel that way! ;-)

Unknown

That wasn't a list

it was the Law!

Lists are what my wife gives me every so often.

Al Letellier

giving gas....

Tim, here in Maine, the owner of a single family house, that he occupies, is considered a Master plumber, heating tech and electrician and can do his own work, with a permit and inspections. We recently got a gas license in this State to go along with all the others, and the homeowner is NOT allowed to do his own work. You simply must be licensed to do gas work in Maine. However, you can go to any "big box" or Sears, or any good hardware store and buy gas water heaters, space heaters and the like without showing a license. What we need, above licensing and permitting is a tagging system which would be filled out at the point of sale, identifying the purchaser, the installer and the place of installation.Then a copy would be sent to the State for spot checking. It's not a perfect system, 'cause the State says they don't have the funds to provide the inspections (Maine has only 4 State Inspectors for Oil and Gas)...but we've got to start somewhere.
Unfortunately, it will probably take a death or serious fire to get someone's attention.

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lchmb

hehe

Yea but do you tell the wife the list is boring??

Steve_35

I'd like to see:

our local code enforcement officials following state law and requiring permits for installations.

our state (NY) require a simple HVAC license. Make it easy to get but pull it if the work doesn't meet code.

more consumers realize they could actually be comfortable in their homes and that we could possibly do things to help enhance their lives in their homes, ie allergy reduction, dust reducton, humidification, etc.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Back when I was licensed by city to do plumbing/electric(requirements changed and I didn't bother to change with them as I mainly quit that line of work):

Acquaintence asked me to "inspect" an older home before he bought. Had frozen and plumbing was shot. Told him that it needed to be COMPLETELY replaced. Electric just as bad. Said it had to be COMPLETELY replaced. Other than that, the foundation was great and the structure in very good condition. Price was right. Suggested he should buy.

HE decided to do the plumbing and electric. Said "Fine, you're allowed, but get it inspected." I did a little bit of work to get water to a single sink for cleaning.

He did have his electric work inspected, but when it came to plumbing...

Got a desperate call one night. "I just can't get this bath plumbed." He hadn't replaced squat and was using galvanized nipples from a home center. Piping was literally going in loops.

Took one look and said, "I won't touch unless EVERYTHING is replaced." Just 1 1/2 baths (stacked) and a very close kitchen so no big deal.

Found lead domestic lines. Found backpitched and rusted cast iron waste lines. He lived there a couple years and has rented for another eight. Plumbing must still be fine as he's the type who expects a "forever" guarantee and I haven't heard a word...

S Ebels

One thing I would like to see

Requiring a mandatory heat loss/gain calc for any and all HVAC work, heating and cooling, would do more to seperate the men from the boys than practically any other single thing. I would like to see it established as a universal requirement across the U.S. as part of a national energy code or act. This would probably do more to eliminate wasted energy and hack work than anything you could name.

How many of the slash and burn types can you think of that do a Manual J or a computer generated version thereof before recommending a given size furnace or boiler? I can't think of any around these parts.

I don't know how this would be enforced or administered but that's another topic for discussion. Makes no difference to me if a homeowner is doing the work in his/her own home. It should still be required somehow.

It just makes sense!

Weezbo

im ,This just in ...Construction E wire Mass law passes that

inspectors will need to be tested *~/:) now that! is Progress! )

Sweet_2

All I have is a list

I'd like to see a standardized code system, IPC UPC IMC UMC etc.I would also like to see continuing education requirements for license renewal, and strict penalties ENFORCED for those doing business without a license or permit.Also, Code enforcement needs some accountability.

STEVEN MARKS

Sweet
Obviously you dont live in CT. Plumbers and Electricians now have sit in a 8hr class on a Saturday to meet their continuing education requirements. This is on a yearly basis instead of every 3 years when new codes are adopted. I have yet to meet someone that has learned anything new from this class. HVAC is next Cant wait

Sweet

smarsks

your obviuosly not from here were your lucky to see a licensed tech on a job on any given day. I understand it's a pain for those of us who care enough about our jobs to continue learning on our own it's more of a weeding out process imho. Not everyone who posts here lives on the east coast.

Unknown

Good stuff so far keep it coming

I did download the "list" at Hot Tech Topics, thanks Dan, obviously nothing you ever list is boring.

I hope to glean some information from that list.

I could use more so keep it coming if you do not mind.

bigugh_4

I posted this elsewhere here on this wall,

Giving what the customer wants?
The entire object here is communiqu

Boiler Guy

Up north

in Manitoba, Canada we are not permitted to touch gas related equipment (except BBQ) without a certificate of competancy.
We all know it is being done, and has gotten worse since the "big boxes" started selling gas equipment to the DIY market. There are documented cases of the insurance companies refusing to pay claims resulting from improper and unlicenced installations.

Jacob Myron_17

Quote me if you want

I am currently retired. I spent forty years in the plumbing and heating business. When I retired from the business I openned an HVAC consulting business and serviced contractors, engineering firms and the real estate industry in New York City.

My approach to removing problems in heating and mechanical systems was to bring the systems back to the original design parameters and operation. Once that was done the trouble shooting sequence began and when the real problems were found I recommended the most economical repair or modification needed to make the system operate at peak efficiency.

Often the cuctomer refused to spend the additional money to repair or modify the the system and bring it to peak efficiency, in fact they did not to pay for the written report and recommendations.

There answer usually was the system operates O.K. and now what you have verbally proposed is a capitol improvement and we are not ready to do that now.

My response to the customer was you can pay me now or pay more for it later.

That remark was not said to illicet more work, it was said basically to inform the customer that no matter who you use, postponing the real needed work will cost more in the future and while they vasilate they are paying a penalty for wasted energy.

Most large building owners have their own favored contractors and in my travels I found most of them to be highly qualified to do most of the work.

In New York City Plumbing Contractors, Electrical Contractors, Riggers and Fuel Oil Burner installers are licensed but that does not insure all these contractors are qualified to do all the different types of work needed to keep the systems in tip top operation.

To find a truely qualified contractor a customer should ask their neighbors, relatives or members of their trade associations for a list of good contractors, not go through the yellow pages and use a hit and miss approach.

I did well in my consulting business and my most of my customers were from referals and of course the leads that Dan Holohan gave me.


Jascob Myron

Unknown

Once again

Thank you for excellent material including some lists. I guess Dan does not remember a discussion we had and I was remembering a statement he made about lists being used and that I quote his statement "lists are boring". I was just having a little fun with our host.

If there are anymore comments I want to give everyone a chance to comment. With your permission I will quote some of you in the article. For full credit your real name can be attached along with your company name. I have bookmarked this thread for future reference.

Scott Denny

Sound advice from the past

To quote John Ruskin:
"It's unwise to pay too much, but worsr to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money-- that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing what it was bought to do.
"The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the rish you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."
Mr. Ruskin lived from 1819-1900
Some things never change.
Scott