installing oil lines

tm

Your the 2nd person that suggested the tiger loop - one guy tried to talk me out of it though. Thanks for your advice.

tm

I am going to run my oil lines soon. I am using a 2 pipe system as I want to run overhead and my double tanks are in the basement with my boiler. I am wondering what most do near the boiler. I don't want my 3/8 OD lines to be vulnerable so, I am thinking of putting a 2x4 from a joist to the floor near the burner to attach the lines and maybe even support the filter housing. Does anyone do installs this way or recommend a another good design?
Thanks

J.C.A._3

Run A SINGLE line,

Just like you want, and install a "Tigerloop" at the boiler.

Why subject the filter to all that fuel with 2 lines ? Use 1 line and keep the flow to a minimum. Using the Tigerloop , it will pull just as well as a 2 pipe system but recirculate the bypassed oil to the loop, taking through the filter only what it needs. (an A2VA-7116 Suntec pump will pull and push somewhere around 14-17 GPH, and that's alot O' fuel to be filtered from any tank, while only burning a portion of it!) JMHO. Chris

pitman9

I'll second the Tiger Loop

Do a bottom takeoff with a General or similar filter off the tank. Open the filter up and throw away the media it comes with. Use one of the gear shaped white filters.

Put a Garber or similar filter before the Tiger Loop. Make sure to put a vacuum gauge on it so you know when to change the filter.

BTW, make sure the tank is sloping toward the drain.

tm

I have a bottom take-off now but the tanks are full of sludge (60 years old). I figure if I drop from the top I can keep the line further from the bottom of the tank. Would'nt this be better? I plan to change the tanks as soon as they are empty.

jon_6

oil lines

how far away is the boiler? get rid of the two pipe,tee your two tanks together on bottom , install a gerber spin on filter , make sure your tank is tipped 1/4 inch per foot if any sludge in tank treat the bacteria and add additive to digest so you can burn it. no need for tiger loop. they are great , but i dont think you need one, use the orange coated 3/8 oil line if exposed to concrete.

tm

Jon,
Thanks for your ideas - The old feed was that way (bottom feed, two tanks teed together to a filter housing with no filter, then the line was run along the basement floor to my boiler some 20 feet away. I want to get rid of that pipe on the floor. I want to run overhead and assume I need a 2 pipe system or tigers loop to do that ???? Single line gravity would not work for that situation - right?

Gary Reecher

Keep the empty filter cannister and install a separate filter cannister at the outlet of the first. The first empty filter cannister will act a sludge pot to catch any sludge before it goes to the filter.

As stated stick with a one pipe system.

Rich P.

overhead oil line

Hi:
I have extensively installed both overhead lines and line on the floor.. The most trouble free way is to stick with floor run. Less likely for loss of prime, easy prime if a run out occurs, also no nagging air problems. The overhead is done when I can't run on the floor.
Single pipe is highly recommended 1. less movement of fuel, less wear on fuel unit(total gear suction capacity)
2. Noisey if line vibrates or doesn't terminate in tank below oil level 3. possible return line leak, also syphon when servicing fuel units strainer(not supposed to have a valve in return line, if it was ever closed can make a big mess)4. extra cost (you do not need 2 stage fuel pump) second line and fittings

Note of caution on overhead line, Try not to put filter at burner, small amounts of air build up in it and cause loss of prime, this air could take two weeks to show but it will.Trust me, this is a lesson I learned the hard way many times over. Do use double filter at tank this is excellent way of solving sludge problems (I like to use a B4 micro filter (white gear type) and Garber spin after that.. No need for a check valve after that

Good Luck
Rich P.

jon_6

oil lines

you can still use a single line with over head piping, the oil pump will pull enough vaccum from the tank to the ceiling and back down to the boiler. i would recommend this way and treating the oil. the gerber spin on filter will give you best filtration . put a vaccum gauge on the filter to monitor any problems .

tm

Rich, Thanks for that detailed response. Jon, thanks again.
I really don't want trouble, on the other hand I don't want to keep stepping on that darn fuel line either. Rich, when you have run overhead, have you used the tiger loop??

By the way, where have you found to be the best place to mount the tiger loop (assuming I go this way).
Thanks

J.C.A._3

Tom, If you insist....

Make the supply run in between 2 joist bays falling down to the burner, and put the Tigerloop on a board (plywood works well) between them.

2- 2X4's with a small wall and 1 line is better support than running any 2 line system in all cases.

Do you see a recurring theme here yet? Filter the oil only 1 time. Passing it back to the tank will cause more problems than it will resolve.More condensatian possibilities in "warmed oil".

If you're planning to replace the tanks, take a lesson from the previous poster, who suggested the "sludge pot", An empty filter can would be the best way to do this.

GRAVITY WORKS, and it's the LAW! If you're that worried for the time being....the empty can would be your answer. When you replace the tanks, everything will still be replacable, including the line going to the burner.

Think about including an OSV at the outlet of the filter either now, or when the tank is replaced. Please do youself a favor and skip the 2 line thought. Chris

Rich P.

Tiger loop

Hi Tom
Most of the time I try not to use a tigerloop because primarily of the cost.. The thing works great, I use it only when needed, like when I have a 2 pipe underground system when one of the lines is questionable. I just am a typical cheap oil guy.
You definately can get by without, however if it is your customer, thats a different story, I hate those calls (you were just here yesterday) a tigerloop ends all concerns and can help other problems. It warms the oil.. It can help with ignition. So I hope this helps
E-mail me if you need more help

Rich P.

Dan_15

oil

You don't need 2 pipe. one pipe is fine. the weight of the oil going up is the same as the oil going down. there won't be any extra vacuum by running it this way. tiger loops do work great, but i don't think you need one here, although it is nice not to have to ever bled the system.
Mike

pitman9

No, you want that crap out of your tank.

You may want to consider two filter canisters at the tank. Leave the media out of the first one (Firedragon's approach).

Treat the tank about every other tankful and change the filter after every fill. It may take 2-3 years but you will clean the tank out.

pitman9

The only time you may have a problem with

a single pipe going overhead w/o a Tiger Loop is when you try to prime. Then the pump must pull the full vacuum to get the oil to the top and across the horizontal. Once the oil starts down all is well.

tm

Thanks everyone,
I guess I will run 1 line and NO tigerloop to start and see how it goes. Anything I can do to help the prime?

tm

Hey Rich,
You were saying not to put a filter near the boiler and instead put 2 near the tank. If I am coming off the top of the tank, can I place the filters up near the ceiling in my horizantal run over to the boiler? In other words do I need to be a certain distance from the tank?
Thanks

Dirk Wright

Tigerloop

I installed a Tigerloop on my warm air furnace right near and above the oil pump on the burner. I used their flex lines directly to the pump. This way, the burner can be removed without disconnecting the oil lines, which is the reason for the flex lines in the first place, according to the manufacturer. I have a UST with over head lines and I had problems with air when I converted to a single line and installed the loop. I think it's fine now though. 12% CO2 @ 82% efficiency. Not bad for a cheap and old Ducane (Carrier)....

Al Gregory

If you come off the top of the tank you will need the tiger loop.

tm

getting confused here - will I need it or not?? Most say no problem (only some possible trouble with prime) - then someone says "if I come off the top of the tank you will need the tiger loop". Why is there this uncertainty?

Al Gregory

If you take the line off the top of the tank your going to need a tiger loop or you will lose your prime alot. If you take the oil from the bottom of the tank you wont need the tiger loop

pitman9

The problem here is you're dealing with professionals

We don't like call backs. Our customers tend to get annoyed if we do something and it doesn't work as advertised. You're certainly free to install your oil lines or anything else you may have in any fashion you choose.

Among the pros the general consensus (not 100% agreement) is you're better off if you HAVE to do a top take off to use a Tiger Loop.

Pretty much everyone agrees to use at least 2 filters.

IMO, use the bottom take off even if you want to go up. Since your tank is nasty, use the existing filter w/o the media as a sludge pot and add a second with media installed. Run the oil line to the equipment and put a Garber filter w/vacuum gauge at the end of the line. Connect the Garber to a Tiger Loop and the TL to the burner.

This will give you the best chance of success now and in the future.

BTW, you should treat your tank every other fill and change the filter at least every other fill until you no longer see sludge in the sludge pot or on the filter. That will probably take 2-3 years.

You do want to get the crud out of your tank because it can damage it and will continue to build. Eventually you'll suck some of it into the line. Probably after a fill while the unit is running.

tm

OK that explaination really helped and I should'nt expect everyone to agree 100%. The only thing I am not following is why would it be better to use the bottom take-off and then go up? It seems to me that if I come out the top, I can keep the line further off the bottom to avoid more sludge. By the way, I had a pin hole leak in bottom of the sludge pot (lost much oil)which worries me that the same could happen to the tanks. Thanks

pitman9

You can go off the top if you want to.

My point is there isn't really a need to and you need to get the tank clean in any case.

We've taken some really filthy (tanks that sat for 10-15 years) with bottom take offs and gotten them clean w/o any plugged nozzles using the techniques I outlined above.

We always want to get whatever gunk/water that's in the tank out. If there's a filter near the bottom of the tank and we service it annually we know just what's going on in the tank. If sludge starts to build up we treat for it before it becomes a problem.

The only time we don't do a bottom take off is with outdoor tanks. And then we install a street 90, nipple, ball valve and plug so we can drain the bottom of the tank when we service it.

Jimmy Gillies

Tom

Tiger loops are great, but here in the UK we can't fit them indoors, as the vapour is dangerous. So we fit them outdoors and 'two pipe' to the boiler. Sorry I'm not sure if that's any help, as all our oil(kero)tanks are also fitted externally, they are small green 1200Ltr(266gall) plastic tanks that sit on paving slabs in your garden. Most houses here are quite small(3 bedroom)and home owners get their tanks filled a few times every year, with many oil companies and tankers on the road, they're never without oil.
Regards.
Jimmy Gillies (Scotland)

Dirk Wright

So the order of components in this proposed system, which is a bottom take off with sludge pot, Garber filter and Tigerloop is: tank -> firomatic valve -> shutoff valve -> sludge pot -> copper line -> shutoff valve -> Garber filter -> OSV -> copper line -> firomatic valve -> Tigerloop -> 2 flex lines -> pump. Is this correct?

I believe having the shutoff valve just before the filter makes for less dripping when you change the filter.

tm

Dirk, why would you put a firomatic valve at the tank before the tank valve??

Rich P.

One time,

One time I went on a call 10 years ago not a regular customer. Outside tank no heat, oil tank hidden in a plywood box. Water in the tank, supply line out the top
however it had a ball valve drain, split and ice all over it, I explained what happened to the owner/contractor
and never happened by that house again. Scary but it makes me think...
Rich P.

pitman9

Thanks for the heads up on the ball valve

Maybe we haven't had a problem because we drain the tanks annually? I've seen outside General filters on a bottom takeoff plugged solid with ice. Seems like that cast cap would pop.

pitman9

Only difference is

we'd use a nipple between the two Generals off the tank w/o a valve between them.

Dirk Wright

I thought some codes required a firomatic at the tank. I guess it depends on where you live. In case of a fire, you want that tank shut off!