Old gymnasium, 25 ft ceilings - how to heat?

Wayco Wayne_2

35 x 60 that means only 6 or 7 loops at 300 ft per loop by my calcs.What's the problem with that? Install nice thick joist trak plates and I bet you wouldn't need a lot of secondary heat. WW

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James Westwater

Old gymnasium, 25 ft ceilings - how to heat?

We're in the Hudson Valley about 60 miles N of NYC, faced with the challenge of how to heat our wide-open, brick, lots of windows, 2000 sq ft, c1900 home. Many different opinions about the heat, but hydro-air seems to be the most popular. We prefer under floor radiant or radiators, but hydro-air includes cooling (one set of ducts). Is there a rule of thumb - "big volumes don't work for under-floor radiant", or "your only option is hydro"?

Steamhead (in transit)

Radiant would be a great choice

since it doesn't cause all the warmed air to stack up to the ceiling.

What's in there now?

James Westwater

Currently home-made aluminum-finned copper pipe radiators. We've been told that a staple-up could be crazy as the joists run 35 ft (16 OS) x 60 ft the other way. "Fans" is the other word we've heard a lot!

Steamhead (in transit)

In a tall space like that

the less stacking you can achieve, the lower the heating costs will be. Radiant is the answer here. You'll still need ducts if you want A/C, but they can be optimized for cooling which will lower their operating costs too.

James Westwater

Thanks. Sorry that's 18 inches on center, thick maple floors. Is it true that each run of tubing can only be 300 ft max? That's a lot of individual runs.

jim lockard

Think I

would start with a heat loss calculation. You can find it in the upper left hand box. Armed with that come back and vist us. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Steamhead (in transit)

That depends

on several things, but if you have a room or area with lots of loops you can put a manifold there and run the loops from that. This avoids lots of long home-run loops to the boiler room.

I know we have some radiant gurus up your way- try the Find a Professional page of this site to find one.

jim lockard

lenght

of pipe is determined by diameter of pipe, and resistance to flow expressed in feet of head. Best Wishes J.Lockard

hr

Define the load

as Jim mentioned. Only then will you know which installation methods will work.

Radiant would be my first choice. However the load may dictate output more than just radiant floors can provide. Possibly some radiant walls? Or additional panel radiators.

hot rod

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J.C.A._3

I like HR's approach.

Radiant will be your best heating source for such a large space,but a secondary source will more likely than not, be needed for total comfort.

Panels are great and the look is modern....but wouldn't it look nicer with some good old fashioned tube type radiators? BIG ones ! ,with a condensing boiler and all the bells and whistles....Sorry, I got caught up in the moment.

As Steamhead stated, air is a cop-out. If A/C is needed consider a split type system(s) to handle that part of it, but heat with a good combination of water and you'll be very happy.

Fans? PULEEEZE! Chris

Paul Pollets

Seek Counsel

One of the best in the Hudson Valley is Advanced Radiant Design in Stone Ridge, NY. On Monday, Call (845) 687-0044 and ask for John....he's highly capable.

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CJRS

ole' fashioned comfort

I envy you having a c1900 house not to mention a large open area design. There are many books published from back in the 70's to current when converting old barns to residences began popularity. Most designs show you layouts of renovations as well as tell you abut how they heated or cooled the dwelling. Cost is always a consideration but some reasonable optoins for a good level of comfort for a large area will be to use hot water heating.
Radiant in the floor would prolly be the best comfort level but may be cost prohibitive due to yrou floor and the risk of drying out old floor boards over time. (cherish those old maple floors)
If you have the room, then old large cast iron rads (option is newer CI baseboard design) will provide comfort over convector rads due to the way they retain their heat longer. (usually a recommendaiton for large open areas)(my choice would be the old style and create architectural interest) Remember the movie Ghost and those nice rads that encircled the tall corinthian columns of the warehouse apartment?
Best keep yoru cooling seperate. It can be designed more efficiently since ductork for cooling and heating needs vary. Not saying it isnt done every day, but not the best way to go if you can afford better.
With any large open area coling issues and heating issue will arise. HAHA not to meniton the heat to the top of the room. Fans, selectively, decoratively is a possibility. Also you can consider seperate fan operated ductwork to aid bringing the hot air from above back down to the floor level and there are inexpensive ways to do that. Spend the money to do it right under installaiton otherwise you may see yourself paying for higher utility costs for an inefficient installed method of heating and cooling yoru large area. Good Luck!!!

Constantin

I agree with WW

I don't think that drying out the floor will be an issue in a structure that is properly humidified. After all, many historic gyms experienced large temperature and humidity cycles as the seasons passed... and the wood held.

Radiant is perfect for this application because it'll keep the heat close to where it's wanted, not high up in the ceiling. I experienced this for myself in my own home when the third floor circuits were not operating, and it was colder on the third floor than on the second despite a large stairwell and all the other "open features" that should have encouraged convection to carry heat up.

Only if the floor cannot heat the place by itself (and that depends on the insulation, climate, etc.) would I resort to radiators, which are an excellent choice as an emitter for a supplemental heating system (stage 2). Staple-up with Thermofin plates and insulation will hopefully squeeze at least 15BTU/(ft² x hr) out of the floor and could be used behind walls as well.

As for summertime cooling, the least expensive bet is probably dropping an all-in-one package unit on the roof. However, I wouldn't do that simply because of the huge hole it puts into your thermal envelope. Given how wide and open the gym spaces are, one could consider ductless units arrayed around the perimeter or a ducted system that runs overhead for the length of the gymnasium. Given the poor performance that floor registers usually entail in cooling applications, I don't think I'd install the AC system below.

For me, the most important variable to consider would be how this space can be insulated to bring the heat and cooling loads down to minimize the visual impact on the space. The better your insulation, the more options you have and the smaller the equipment that is needed to keep the place comfortable. If radiant floors are out of the question due to budget, I'd resort to lots of radiators arrayed around the perimeter.

Dirk Wright

Ceilings too tall

Have you considered building a loft or other second floor within this structure? Even if you divide it in equal heights, you'd still have 12 ft ceilings! The reason I say this is because that's a huge space to heat all at once. It would be better to divide it up somehow. Just my amatuer opinion of course.

James Westwater

Thanks guys this is ALL helpful, and I'm very greatful for your advice and expertise. And yes some of the space will have a second floor, 20-30% of the footprint. Now all we need is a radiant expert to do the job!

Robert O'Connor_12

Old gym

I too like the radiant idea however depending on the use and frequency of use for the space they may want something that may react more quickly.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

thfurnitureguy_4

Maple floors are better dry than wet! when they get wet they will expand and buckle up.