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Peoples Republic of Gassachusetts
ScottMP
Member Posts: 5,882
I read your link the changes and see nothng stating the vent MUST be seven feet off the gorund. Its does refer to applications where the vent is NOT seven feet off the ground and this refes to where CO alarms are to be installed. You can still install vents less than seven feet.
NO where does the new code say a power interupting CO alarm must be installed.
The Utilty has no right to not allow a system to come online if it has passed inspection. Only if they find a violation or gas leak. If the cide book was on the job site ( which is now code ) then this should have been resolved. If the person pulling the gas permit had been on the job this could have been resolved.
I belive NO ONE should install a fuel unless they are licensed for that fuel. Gas License, Oil License.
Yes, the codes are changing and quickly, but you need to stay up on them and READ them. Not listen to rumor and hearsay.
Scott
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NO where does the new code say a power interupting CO alarm must be installed.
The Utilty has no right to not allow a system to come online if it has passed inspection. Only if they find a violation or gas leak. If the cide book was on the job site ( which is now code ) then this should have been resolved. If the person pulling the gas permit had been on the job this could have been resolved.
I belive NO ONE should install a fuel unless they are licensed for that fuel. Gas License, Oil License.
Yes, the codes are changing and quickly, but you need to stay up on them and READ them. Not listen to rumor and hearsay.
Scott
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Comments
-
Who knows whats going on in the Commonwealth WRT Signs, CO detectors and interlocking my burner circuit with such devises?
I was refused yesterday by the gas utility to commission a new Viessmann condensing boiler. I used the Mfgs coaxial sealed combustion horizontal vent kit and as I read on the latest modification to the MA code it appears that I may fall under the EXEMPTIONS of (C) 1 and 2 of the amended code. Not sure though as the politicos write this stuff for the lawyers not the guys responsible for the safety of the nation.
The reasons given by the utility were that I needed to have an "interlocking devise hard wired to the CO detection system that will shut down the side wall vented appliance" before they could give us gas. Apparently there may be more revisions and additions than what are currently listed on the state's website. I heard Oct 14th they were amended yet again. Any truth to this?
Further, arent we only required to meet whatever version was in place at the time our permit was pulled? How do we know whats going on when the electrical & plumbing inspectors dont even know for sure. Then comes the gas company. The utility refused to hear any fancy terms such as balanced flue, true sealed combustion and or coaxial venting. They only understand that it is a side wall horizontally vented gas appliance!
The board is painting these issues with a pretty wide brush this matter arent they?
Wallace Radiant Design
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My sympathies to you Gary.
It's very frustrating when the people who make the rules know very little about what they are dealing with. What you have going on there in Kennedyland sounds like a kneejerk reaction to a headline grabbing incident. Tragic to be sure, but to throw any and all appliances into the same basket speaks to the ignorance of those making the rules. The paranoia of the gas company just shows that liability lawyers are running this country. Period.
I'm just commenting from the sidelines because I don't know all the facts of your new code. Suffice to say that there is talk in our Bureau of Building and Construction Codes that will require all vent terminations of fuel fired appliance to exit the building above the roof. What a nightmare that would be. The carpenters would actually have to think about where the heating equipment is going to go before building the house.0 -
Gary
Unless I read the code wrong, the C.O. detector must only be wired in the same circuit as the applaince. As far as I know there is No Inlertocking C.O. device available.
I am assuming that you mean the C.O. detector would shut down the applaince if it was tripped ?
Also Gary, why would the utility care as long as its inspected and had a tag from the local inspecter ?
Scott
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Hi Gary,
> Who knows whats going on in the Commonwealth
> WRT Signs, CO detectors and interlocking my
> burner circuit with such devises?
>
> I was
> refused yesterday by the gas utility to
> commission a new Viessmann condensing boiler. I
> used the Mfgs coaxial sealed combustion
> horizontal vent kit and as I read on the latest
> modification to the MA code it appears that I may
> fall under the EXEMPTIONS of (C) 1 and 2 of the
> amended code. Not sure though as the politicos
> write this stuff for the lawyers not the guys
> responsible for the safety of the nation.
> The reasons given by the utility were that I
> needed to have an "interlocking devise hard wired
> to the CO detection system that will shut down
> the side wall vented appliance" before they could
> give us gas. Apparently there may be more
> revisions and additions than what are currently
> listed on the state's website. I heard Oct 14th
> they were amended yet again. Any truth to this?
> Further, arent we only required to meet whatever
> version was in place at the time our permit was
> pulled? How do we know whats going on when the
> electrical & plumbing inspectors dont even know
> for sure. Then comes the gas company. The utility
> refused to hear any fancy terms such as
> balanced flue, true sealed combustion and or
> coaxial venting. They only understand that it is
> a side wall horizontally vented gas appliance!
> The board is painting these issues with a pretty
> wide brush this matter arent they?
>
> _a
> href="http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/radiantfloo
> rs/"_Wallace Radiant Design_/a_
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
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0 -
Hi Gary,
> Who knows whats going on in the Commonwealth
> WRT Signs, CO detectors and interlocking my
> burner circuit with such devises?
>
> I was
> refused yesterday by the gas utility to
> commission a new Viessmann condensing boiler. I
> used the Mfgs coaxial sealed combustion
> horizontal vent kit and as I read on the latest
> modification to the MA code it appears that I may
> fall under the EXEMPTIONS of (C) 1 and 2 of the
> amended code. Not sure though as the politicos
> write this stuff for the lawyers not the guys
> responsible for the safety of the nation.
> The reasons given by the utility were that I
> needed to have an "interlocking devise hard wired
> to the CO detection system that will shut down
> the side wall vented appliance" before they could
> give us gas. Apparently there may be more
> revisions and additions than what are currently
> listed on the state's website. I heard Oct 14th
> they were amended yet again. Any truth to this?
> Further, arent we only required to meet whatever
> version was in place at the time our permit was
> pulled? How do we know whats going on when the
> electrical & plumbing inspectors dont even know
> for sure. Then comes the gas company. The utility
> refused to hear any fancy terms such as
> balanced flue, true sealed combustion and or
> coaxial venting. They only understand that it is
> a side wall horizontally vented gas appliance!
> The board is painting these issues with a pretty
> wide brush this matter arent they?
>
> _a
> href="http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/radiantfloo
> rs/"_Wallace Radiant Design_/a_
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
I attended
an ispectors class just this tuesday and Brad Wong from the board assurd all the inspectors that you must meet the code in affect at the time the permit is pulled.
I do not have the time to type the code and modifications but I did do part of it in an earlier post this week starting with Munchkin life expectancy------------.
You should call the State Board and speak to a State Inspector as the local inspector may not have attended a class on this subject yet.
Good luck.
If you call me 508-755-5563 I will fax what I have.
Jack0 -
direct and mechanical vents MA
I agree,
the co sensor is required to be hard wired with a battery back up at the location of the appliance, also on the same circuit. Also required is co sensors in the living space outside of bedrooms (theese can be hard wired or battery type). If the vent termination is below four feet above exterior grade, a sign must be posted directly above stating, Gas vent below w/ an arrow.
happy high efficiency0 -
utility
the utility company does not want to be responsable for the system shutting down and the house freezing. (liability)0 -
heating
Last I heard, what Scott said was right. The code does not say that the co detector should break the electrical circuit. It doesnt even say hard wired.
Unless it changed again then I 'm wrong.
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too funny
> Last I heard, what Scott said was right. The
> code does not say that the co detector should
> break the electrical circuit. It doesnt even say
> hard wired.
>
> Unless it changed again then I
> 'm wrong.
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 343&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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It's sad
when I look at the most recent modifications they seem clear as a bell, but I can see how the confusion can exist for the lazy reader(inspector,contractor whoever)
example: the very first topic on my revision page clearly deals with conversions and states "shall be equipped with a manually reset device that will automatically shut off the gas to the burner in the event of a sustained back draft" if you don't know what that is or think somehow it has to to with horizontally vented equipment,you should not be an inspector.
or how many times have you heard that you can't vent below 7 feet? the worst part is there's a natural draft boiler/ water heater spilling like mad on every street in the commonwealth and no one seems to notice!
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exactly Paul.
No where in any of the new codes does it say that the C.O. detector is to break the power circuit to the applaince.
I have been told that they may change the code "yet again", to have the installation of CO detectors be in the Electrical Code. The powers that be want it removed from the plumbing code and inserted in the electrcal code to go along with smke alarms. Make sense if you think about it, having the gas inspector have jurisdication over the electrcians work is'nt right.
Of course the trouble is, how many electricans take out a permit for a boiler wiring ?
I belive the CO part of the code to be the only "Correct" part of the code revision.
Back to Garys question : Someone dosn't know the code.
Scott
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How would they be ?
If what he is saying is correct, they are the ones calling for a power interupter ?
Scott
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Scott,
Im not finding that in the revisions either but, I was told by the UTILITY that the burner circuit must turn off when a C.O. alarm goes off. I guess its not really my fight here for the following reasons;
Im only responsible for installing the boiler, indirect heater, radiant heating systems and all 24 volt wiring associated with these items including vent termination. On this particular job, I was required (by the electrical inspector) to have a licensed electrician pull a permit and stand inspection for my 24 volt wiring in the house. (3- thermostat wires and switching relay) Never had to jump through that hoop before!
Heres where Im a little unsure of whom is responsible for what; When the plumber on the job is responsible to provide me with the gas supply to my heat source, isnt he also going to be responsible for the venting of said appliance? Makes sense that he would be but, hes never even seen vent pipe like this before. They dont know what a condensing boiler is and also refuse to install the potable water connections to & from my indirect tanks even though they hold the plumbing & gas permits to this place!
Im still not sure why the utility wouldnt turn the gas on. The union plumbers on the job had their tag from the local inspector hanging right on the meter bar. Of course the meter bar had to be changed out to a larger one because the utilitys salesman didnt fill out the work order properly. This took another entire day. In the meantime, Im standing around waiting to simply push the power button hopefully turning the red light to green. (G)
Arrrrrrgg!!!,,, This my friends is why I dont do plumbing anymore.
Wallace Radiant Design
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one
What really prompted this was one incident. Don't get me wrong- ONE life lost is one too many, but the powers that be were in such a rush to implement SOMETHING that they didn't look at the effects of their actions. Here in MA they are asking for vents to be 4 feet above grade- that puts them in window territory in 90% of homes.
I feel that simple blocked flue switches- the same ones that have been in some units for YEARS , coupled with COMMON SENSE (there's a concept), can resolve the safety issue. I do agree with CO detectors in our living space- but that falls under the COMMON SENSE rule in my book.
And how about that big yellow sign over the already less than appealing (but necessary) vent?.....Homeowners are going to love those. You will be able to pick them up on E-Bay right after the first inspection.
Sorry- this is how I get before my coffee......
GW
0 -
Heres where I get confused;
"EXEMPTIONS: The following equipment is exempt from 248 CMR 5.08 (2) (a)1 through 4:
When the manufacturer of Product Approved side wall horizontally vented gas equipment provides a venting system design or venting system components with the equipment, the instructions for installation of the equipment and the venting system shall include:
1. A complete parts list for the venting system design or venting system; and
2. Detailed instructions for the installation of the venting system design or the venting system components."
Viessman provides a venting system design and all system components for their Vitodens 200 with the equipment. This system includes a complete parts list and detailed instructions of the venting system design.
What am I missing here? Perhaps Im a lazy reader too.
Wallace Radiant Design
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Gary
It is confusing and I think your are reading it wrong.
Exceptions as I read it are only equipment that is not installed in a dwelling or is an unvented applaince.
(c) Which refers to the manfuctures venting eguipment means only that the installer must have the directions for installtion of the venting product with him.
Simply using a manufactures venting system ( no matter how good the company ) dos'nt excempt you from the new codes.
Scott
Also the code does not state that the vent must be four feet or seven feet above the ground. It simple states that over a certain hieght different codes apply. You need to read these things carfully.
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co
no power intrupter required0 -
latest and greatest
this is the current code change0 -
It did change again.
They changed it again. They changed what the sign has to say and now they want the vent 7 feet off the ground. And the co detector no longer has to be on the same circuit as the boiler. Here is the link to the boards web site where it says it. http://www.mass.gov/dpl/boards/pl/cmr_prop/amend248cmr5_08.pdf
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Its about the money!
It's a sad state of affairs when the legit get reamed and the trunk slammers get a free pass.
Talk about being redundant! The whole code revision should be scrapped and redone. No wonder the inspector and NSTAR are confused. It has to be read, and re-read about ten times or so to make any sense out of the obtuse manner in which it's written. Further, the gas co is plain wrong to refuse service for non-compliance with the CO rulings. The code says plainly that I have a month to get in compliance!
Its about the money! Why else would I have the need to get an electrical permit as well?
If they want to keep referring to other codes, they should be required to furnish a copy of whatever they're incorporating so that contractors dont continually have to purchase multiple code books.
Tell me they've never seen an installation book? When's the last time you saw any equipment WITHOUT venting instructions?
Wallace Radiant Design
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Gary,
Good point. Every installation manual has more pages on venting than any other subject covered in them, including the (what Guy said) "Common Sense" crap.
One event HAS made a mess of the whole process. There have been more changes made to the code in the last 2 months than have been made in the last 20 years....with (I'm sure....) more to come.
Maybe they should have a writer, who happens to be a technician, interpret the codes in PLAIN ENGLISH, not Lawyerspeak, and make sure it is both CLEAR AND READABLE without the express written consent of someone taking our money, to cover our butts.
Maybe Orwell was right.....He only missed by 21 years! Chris.0 -
re: License?
No need for a Gas license in Massachusetts. To install a furnace,boiler or whatever, all you have to do is get the gas company to run the pipe, what about a replacement, need a permit?, why we didn't touch the hardpiping. Just get an old pickup truck, buy some plastic pipe, throw a furnace,boiler in the back, now your in business.Now they want you to put a sign on the side of the house! Why not demand that all the installers pass a test, how many guys you know slamming in oil burners with no permit? Very few, if any.If it's broke fix it, stop pushing paper and start testing. What a joke!0 -
direct and mechanical gas vents
Hey,
We're all right.
It did change to 7 feet, (not in writing though)
Just heard that there's a public hearing next week so it will probably change yet again.
hold on to your hat0 -
Scott,
I am a licensed plumber & gasfitter in Mass. I have been since 1984. On this job and with an increasing majority of the radiant systems I do, there is a plumbing contractor on the job. He is responsible to provide the gas line and potable water to the indirect tank(s) but the plumbers rarely get it. No matter how much time I spend trying to explain the physics of condensing boilers or how a proportional thermostatic tempering valve works. Then they see me pressing copper fittings and talk bout me behind my back.
The union plumber pulled the permit for this job WAY before the revisions came to pass. Last summer I believe in August. I STILL have no gas service. The lock is still on the meter. NSTAR couldnt fit us into their schedule today.
I don't agree with you WRT: NO ONE should install a fuel unless they are licensed for that fuel. Gas License, Oil License. I also install oil fired equipment. I do everything except the set-up when I turn the keys over to my oil burner technician. I sub-contract this service out . Oil burners are something I have no interest in servicing. This is best left to the properly licensed and trained. I always request they leave a printout of the combustion efficiency results on site. Is that so wrong?
Wallace Radiant Design
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7ft
it is 7ft off the ground or less that you need to have the signs and detectors . It is on the mass web site it is in writing . Scott i disagree with you about needing the liscence to install the equipment . I have a plumber that does the gas we do the rest what's wrong with that ? I firmly believe that with some code brush up I could pass the gas fitters test and would be willing to take it . Problem is that they won't let me . I would have to close down the company , quit my job and go to work for some plumber for how many years ? just to get the aprentice hours in just so i could go back to doing what i've always done . if your gas system breaks the gas company says call a plumber . they call a plumber and tell him their 90+ furnace is broken and most plumbers will say call an HVAC guy ,giving the job right back to us anyhow . So why do you care about us doing it upfront and subbing the gas line if you guys don't want the work anyhow ?0 -
heres the latest on gas venting.0 -
Lic. Plumber
Why ar'nt YOU pulling the permit for YOUR job.
The name on the permit is the resposible party for the work. If they don't understand your specialised system, why involve them ???
Scott
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Once again
Vents cqan be installed UNDER seven feet. It just means that a different set of rules apply under seven feet.
Joel, who's name is on the permit ? Who's is then the resposible party for the job ? If this is the work you do, why not be licensed for it ? I use to do the same thing with oil, sub it out. I started studying to take the test untill Chris A. came along and we use his lic.. I guess thats wrong and I am being hypercritical and should have my own lic..
I guess I was responding more to Gary, who appariantly does a gas boiler and a domestic hot water tank and dos'nt pull a permit for either even thought his has a lic. ????
Who says I don't want the work
Scott
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I do have a permit on this job,,,
An ELECTRICAL PERMIT!
Ill say it again: Its ALL about the money. I suppose I could go to Town Hall, pull a couple of permit (gas & plumbing) under Wallace Radiant Design, Tell the inspector Im ready for inspection right now and see what happens. Perhaps he will come by (when he has the time) and he just might miss the fact that there is a blue tag hanging on the gas meter with his writing on it for the plumber on the job. I will have paid my way in at that point.
There was a plumbing contractor on this job before I even got started here. They are the ones responsable to provide the gas and potable water piping systems to home. They dont get it (the revisions) and dont even seem to care that they have 30 days.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Board of Examiners of Plumbers & Gas Fitters would not even accept Tim McElwaines credentials as a gas trainer last summer. I saw with him right after that meeting. He told me they dont recognize his qualifications because he has not worked in the field under a Master plumber licensed in MA. I suppose Jim Davis wouldnt be good enough for these guys either.
Wallace Radiant Design
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I would be
interested in knowing why the State Board turned Tim down rather than a condemnation without explanation.
Why did he approach the Board, what did he want to teach and what was his goal for the class?
Why would he even need the blessing of the State Board? This is America and he can teach anyone he wants at any time and anywhere.
Jack0 -
In Massachusetts anyone
can teach a non-accredited seminar, that is a FACT!
However, most states including this one (MA) and Tim's home state (RI) require that a school be accredited by the State Board of Education.
In addition, in this state the school must also be 'signed off' by the respective trade Board.
Tim was looking to teach and certify and lead into people getting licensed as Gasfitters in MA. If the Board doesn't allow it, well, it's a waste of time.............. in their eyes.
But, education is education and Tim is one of the best!0 -
My late
Father-in-law taught a non-certified class for many years and helped more plumbers get their license than anyone at the time. He was sought out for his expertise and even continued well into retirement because apprentices who wanted to pass the exam sought him out.
If Tim wants to teach, he can teach and as the movie goes "they will come".
As for running a certified program we all have to meet the minimum requirements or we can not do it. When I applied for a Mass plumbing teachers license I had to get certified as a Plumber even though I was a master, journeyman, Certified in Plumbing Design by ASPE, owned my own business for over 13 years and had been doing plumbing for over 20 at the time. I didn't regard taking the oral and practical exams as a slight but as part of the system.
If enough people feel the rules are to stringent they should work together to change them.
Once again, the American way.
Jack0 -
Jack
I am confused ( Big Supprise).
As a Master Plumber and Journeyman what does it mean to be certified as a "plumber". Don't both of those allready mean that ? Or do you mean you where certified as a gasfitter ?
I agree (once again ) with your American Way.
Scott
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Hi Scott,
> I am confused ( Big Supprise).
>
> As a Master
> Plumber and Journeyman what does it mean to be
> certified as a "plumber". Don't both of those
> allready mean that ? Or do you mean you where
> certified as a gasfitter ?
>
> I agree (once again
> ) with your American Way.
>
> Scott
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
Hi Scott,
I did not mean certified as a plumber but as a Plumbing teacher and/or inspector. They both require meeting minimum standards, set by the State, in order to maintain the status.
It looks like I'm the one confused and it happens often but as the song goes "I can see clearly now" oh no, the rain has not stopped.
Jack0
This discussion has been closed.
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