Request for inspection - how much advance notice? (GrandPAH)

Dave Yates (PAH)

it's cracked!(G)

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Twilight zone?

Over the years, I've seen the required advance notice times get longer & longer. Hit a new low today with one twp where they're telling us they will require 15-days advance notice! Now that's just plain wrong.

24-hours I can live with. What's the time-delay where you live & work?

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jackchips_2

15 days?

We should package them up and send them to that planet that was growing humans for snacks.

Here in MA: 10.04(2)(a)2.: Upon proper notice of a request for an Inspection of the rough plumbing, the Inspector shall make the Inspection within two working days after receipt of such notice.

You have to love that language with the loop holes but the State Executive Director once again reminded a group of Inspectors that if it was their intent to get up in the morning to make life difficult for the plumbers they should get another job.

Don't you live in the State with the Liberty Bell, GrandPAH?

Jack

Mad Dog_2

Every town and Village is different

The big townships usually 4-5 days with one being 2-3 weeks. Small Villages 1-3 days - Barney Fyfe has to keep from falling asleep. Mad Dog

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jwade55_3

Here in Western PA

The township I live in is average 1-2 days. Go North about 20 miles, 1-3 WEEKS! Difference seems to be if the township does their own inspections or if a 3rd party does them.

J

Robert O'Connor_12

GrandPAH

You gatta move otta dat state grandPAH!

Skeeter don't like you shakin D' tree mon.

Here in the "Great State of New Jersey", we have the regulations as defined in N.J.A.C. 5:23-2.18(c)1. Notice of inspection:

1. The owner or other responsible person in charge of work shall notify the enforcing agency when the work is ready for any required inspection specified herein or required by the construction official or appropriate sub-code official. This notice shall be given at least 24 hours prior to the time the inspection is desired. Inspections shall be performed within three business days of the time for which it was requested. The work shall not proceed in a manner which will preclude the inspection until it has been made.


Just a little ethics.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/misc/code_of_ethics.pdf


It is unfortunate these inspectors can't keep their appointment(s), however, many municipalities are under staffed, underpaid, and overworked. I wouldn't necessarily blame the inspector per se, I would blame their boss The Construction Official for not manning the department adequatly. The department head establishes fees, and is suppose to ensure the inspections are made, or to make other arrangements with either a third party inspection agency or with the DCA (Department of Community Affairs).


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

honey draws more flies....

You know me(G)

That edict motivated me to visit with the "boss" late today. I took some time to explain why that's not acceptable and he's promised to try making things better. Our inspection is slated for tomorrow - before lunch(G)!

Overworked, underpaid and undereducated - that's my beloved state of affairs in PA!

As an aside - this township inspector says he doesn't care what the newly adopted code says - he says what he says is the law! The newly adopted code says no permit and no inspection required if we replace fixtures and put the new ones where the old ones were. Odd ruling, but dat's de facts Jack. He says dat don't mean squat & he makes de rules(G). Maybe I'll stay in de office during de inspection.

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EBEBRATT-Ed

In Mass. an emergency such as replacing a boiler can be done without a permit as long as the inspector is notified at the first opportunity.


Ed

S Ebels

Inspections

State inspectors here in Michigan are required to pay you a visit within 2 working days of your call. If they don't show up, you are allowed to cover it up. Very seldom have I ever had one not show. Lot's of times, if I tell them I'm in a pinch for time they'll just ask for details about the job and give a rough in OK over the phone. (These are inspectors that know me, the crew, and our work)

Some townships and counties do their own inspections and they vary. The thing is though, they are supposed to operate under the same set of rules and code as the state inspectors do. I told the cement guys to pour a job I had called a local yokel 6 days previous and he still hadn't showed. They poured it the next day and as the fickle finger of fate would have it, he finally appeared as they were finish troweling the slab. Gadzooks, did that man come uncorked! The cement guys had to physically restrain him from wading into their pour and ripping up the tube. He calmed down when I arrived and produced the code book shwing him the paragraph dealing with inspection lead time. Told him I'd be happy to see him in court. He did his best to make life miserable for the rest of that job but we got the best of him. After it was all said and done, I sent him a gift certificate for a local eatery along with a thankyou note and never had another problem with him since.

They seem to forget the meaning of the term, public servant.

Robert O'Connor_12

EBEBRATT

Sounds like we have similar administrative codes.

5:23-2.14(b)3. Construction permits-when required:
Emergency work not involving lead abatement, except that a permit shall be applied for or notice given as soon thereafter as is practicle, but not later than 72 hours thereafter.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Unknown

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rich pickering

Phoned my inspector on his cell." Travis, what's the odds of geting some groundwork inspected later today?" Twenty minutes later, inspection done and I'm going for lunch with the wife.

Anthony Menafro

Hey GrandPAH

Doesn't Pa follow NJ where the codes are concerned?

Anthony Menafro

Dave Yates (PAH)

UCC here

For decades we asked for, wished for and complained that we didn't have a state-wide plumbing code. You know what they say about being careful what you wish for! Well, they were right.

Previously, we had multiple municipalities with each having their own oddities and alterations to established codes. Inspectors were simply appointed without any prior experience or knowledge and given powers that often became abused. As for rules, a few bad apples in the inspector segment took great pleasure in making up rules to suit their mood. Buck the established system by knowing the code and insisting the inspector abide by the rules & you could count on a constant battle.

The thought and hope was that a state-wide code would establish a level playing field along with eliminating most of the issues listed above (and - that's a much abbreviated list). Instead, it's made an already bad situation much, much worse. Inspectors previously inspected just plumbing. Now they're expected to include water lines, heating and air conditioning - all without any training. Here's the code books folks - go forth and inspect.

Meanwhile, permit and inspection feesw doubled, trippled and in one case went up 300%! Our license fees suddenly followed that same trend. Meanwhile, the level of service we get for those fees tanked & I mean right through the bottom of the pit.

And, just to add some spice, the state code has some huge loop-holes in it. If I remodel your bathroom and install new waterm DWV and fixtures while putting the fixtures in the same spot previously occupied - no permit and no inspection required! Several local inspectors whose municipalities have adopted the new code have refused to acknowledge this change and insist you will pick up a permit and get inspections or they'll lift your license. Same odd thinking was applied where HVAC work is concerned: replace like with like & no permit or inspection is needed. Do it right and find the equipment can be a different size - permit, Manual-J and inspection required. In this a crazy business or what!

Meanwhile, Rome burns: trunk slammers and handyperson types operate in plain sight (above the radar) with impunity. Only licensed contractors come under scrutiny. Why? Because they're easy to punish and find.

The result? More pros than ever have chosen to forego permits and inspections. So many, that a number of municipalities are losing huge sums in spite of their hugely inflated fees.

The system is cracked - just like that liberty bell.

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Robert O'Connor_12

Dave

In the "Great State of New Jersey", we use the UCC as I've previously stated, and this has been in force since 1977. The largest code adoption we've seen since its inception has been sub-chapter 6 which goes by the name of the Rehabilitation Subcode. The subcode takes a new approach. The requirements that apply to a project are based upon the type of work being done rather than on the extent of the work. There is only one exception to this rule. In the case of reconstruction work, as the term reconstruction is defined in the subcode, there are some requirements which must be met when the project is a large one in floor area.

In the subcode, work is classified into six catagories. Each catagory has a seperate section which describes the requirements for that catagory of work. The catagories are repair, renovation, alteration, reconstruction, change of use and additions. These terms are defined in N.J.A.C.5:23-6.3. The definitions are CRITICAL to understand the distinctions between these six catagories of work. Where the project contains more than one catagory of work, each applicable catagory must be consulted for the requirements for that catagory of work.

As to the requirement(s) for permit(s) on a project, subchapter 6 also addresses this as well. The requirements of the subchapter shall apply to ALL rehab work without regard to wheater a permit is required for such work. It should not be assumed that a permit is required simply because a requirement is established by the subchapter. Determinations as to whether a permit is required shall be made in accordance with the administrative provisions of the UCC contained at N.J.A.C.5:23-2.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

ps: I wasn't sure if I'd be able to download and or share information from the DCA publications unit, however I've found most, if not all of the re-hab code for you review. Everything I've previously stated is too included herein.

Happy Reading!

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/rehab/text/subchapter6.pdf

Bob.

Dave Yates (PAH)

yikes!

That's a doozer! 208 pages to go......

BTW, a friend burned me a DVD copy of the PA UCC. All of it! There's much to be learned(G).

A lawyer who specializes in the codes and defends contractors who are being targeted by inspectors run amok had his secretary run off about a hundred pages of the exceptions PA worked into the UCC. Amazing stuff to ponder and heavy hands of lobbyists must have been at play. The PA builders'assn. is hard at work getting more concesions. Yesterday, a trusted inspector told me the new code doesn't recognize plumbing licenses and anyone can now lift a permit and perform the work. Were it not for their ordinance governing plumbing licenses (he said) we wouldn't be recognized at all. Maybe I should move to Jersey!

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Robert O'Connor_12

Jersey?

Yikes! There's no room.

Besides I think if you were my competition I'd never get any work.

All kidding aside. What you need to do is keep on doing what you are doing but get some help (that didn't sound right, lol). Are there any organizations in Skeeterville for licensed plumbers? If so, are you a member? Who, or what department within PA covers this all in regards to your administrative code? For example, in "Joisey" we have the DCA which is under Consumer Affairs.


Robert O'Connor/NJ

mikea23

codes

As per federal regulations all states must adopt the international building code and have done so (2002)
The only municipality exempt from them where city governments like NYC. The IBC has strict guidelines the inspectors must follow. I wish all the contractors would get together and stand up to them. I have done so and had only a few problems at first. Once they understand you won’t just roll over and eat there bs at your cost they will be strict but they will follow the laws.

In my area had a problem with CSST gas lines and Wirsbo aquapex tubing we installed it in a home with 9 bathrooms and 11 gas fixtures the inspector blew a gasket and told me no no no no pex no ward flex you fail. I called the senior inspector the next day and met with him code book in hand. After a long meeting I got the same answer no no no .You can meet with the plumbing board and ask them in three months when they meet. Obviously we can’t hold up the job for 3 months. I was mad we used approved products installed them correctly who is this guy to just make up laws as they go.

I walked out called both manufacturers they both where great but especially Wirsbo together we found a state official that administers codes. I called and first asked if they where approved product (they where) Then I said what can I do if a local code administrator says no. The answer was flat out they can’t do that just like a police officer can’t make his own laws. I turned over all my paperwork with letters from both manufacturers stating I was certified to install them and they where installed to there guidelines and specifications. The state official called and sent them a letter that I installed approved products and if they continued to disallow those product the state would suspend their inspector’s license and hold a hearing to revoke them. Problem solved.

I was a bit nervous on my next inspection but when the inspector got there I spoke to him explained why I had to do it he understood. The next few months his inspections where tough but fair now he understands that I will follow the code and if he fails me it better be a good reason.
Why don’t we all do this it would make our jobs much easier and more profitable in the long run. Mike

Dave Yates (PAH)

PHCC

Local chapter. PA didn't find it necessary to set up any kind of body to oversee or listen. We live in limbo thanks to William Penn (so I'm told) who never wanted any single governing body to have control. That's why I answer to dozens of municipal inspectors who each follow their own set of rules.

If I ever find out whose ear to bend....................

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