Crossing over the neutral zone! (GrandPAH)

Robert O'Connor_12

In many of the installation I see the installers have been using these small condensate pumps, why not have a re-fillable cartridge type that maybe turns a different color when the chips are done or (I know this sounds nuts & expensive) but a Ph alarm or disconnect of sorts, or..........


You could just pump it to a clothes washing machine standpipe and be done with it.

I believe the code allows this, for the detergents affectively change its Ph.

I like the idea about the specific gravity of the material too. Has anyone seen the new "Approved" urinals? Same idea maybe?

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

Romulan battle cruisers

Aside from a photon torpedo, what are you using for neutralizing condensate from modcon appliances? Viessman has a very cool-looking clear-view chamber with pellets so you can tell at a glance if they're depleted.

ME has a home-brew deal. (Details Mark???)

The more we learn, the less I seem to know. Local codes enforcers aren't requiring anything! PVC drains are the norm in newer homes/businesses, but CI rules for lots of DWV in our area.

Source for clear 3" or 4" tubing that's PVC OD size???

Seems like a neat way to keep a few more Btu's in the home and out of the drain!



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Brad White_33

I have to draw that up...

I specify a fairly simple neutralizer which for now I will descibe. It can be easily made by anyone who can make a Potato Gun

Grand PAH- have to love that! Send pictures of you and Lily, you wrapped around her tiny finger.. :

Ahem... Neutralizer....

Ingredients:

4" PVC or CPVC pipe about two feet long.

At each end a 4 x 4 x 1.5" Tee, with the tee branches looking 180 degrees apart. ("Z" flow pattern.)

The ends of each tee have a screw cleanout fitting. These are used to fill the vessel with marble chips and to empty them when spent.

Condensate goes in one end and out the other, being neutralized on the way. Same princple of the vitrious clay marble chip tank used in some labs. I consider this an indirect waste conditions so keep an airgap in and out so you can see flow or lack thereof.

The device is hung with PVC teardrop hangers. I tried saddles and F-M rings but hanging seems to keep them above the fray.

Chips last about two months depending on throughput. Some larger installations would go longer or wider. No science here, just a place to start. When the chips are depleted they come out all rounded and crumbly with little pin-holes.

Now, if I could capture the hydrogen released in the process and use that in my fuel cell, Hah!

Now, one other point I thought I should mention:

Before this, I used an empty drywall compound bucket. I cut in a side tap about 6 inches from the bottom and screwed in a 1.25" PVC nipple as the outlet. I filled it with marble chips and put it in a spare laundry sink. Worked fine for about 2 years. Then the plastic apparently became brittle and cracked. I do not think the plastic is PVC but high density polyethylene (HDPE). Anyone have experience with this? Gave me pause re: PVC but I understand that to be OK..

Brad

Robert O'Connor_12

Grand PAH

Git yer reading glasses there grandPaH. The 2003 International Mechanical Code which has been adopted in the great state of New Jersey says in section 307 Condensate disposal.

Liquid combustion by-products of condensing appliances shall be collected and discharged to an approved plumbing fixture or disposal area in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Condensate piping shall be of approved corrosion-resistant material and shall not be smaller than the drain connection on the appliance. Such piping shall maintain horizontal slope in the direction of discharge of not less than one-eight unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (1-percent slope).

Its being enforced here.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

ps: How is Lily? Has the spoiling begun?

hr

Putting condensate to work

When I installed my Lochinvar Knight I wanted to see how much condensate it produced over night. So I put a bucket under the drain connection.

I started dropping copper pipe and fittings into the bucket as I repiped the old primary loop.

Next day I dump the bucket and find shiney bright copper pipe and fittings.

Maybe I stumbled across a fitting cleaner and neutralizer

I should have measured the before and after ph. Something else to put on my list of to dos

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

Deer GramPAH...

I'm STILL jealous...

We use a 5 gallon bucket. We fill it with crushed marble. The fluid gozinta the bottom, percolates up through the marble, getting lots of contact time, and gozuta a side outlet, about 12" off the bottom of the bucket.

After having read Brad Whites take on the affects of low pH on the plastic buckets, I'm beginning to rethink my methodology.

Dave Stroman in Denver has been using 3" PVC, made to resemble a quart drum trap. It has an accessible lid to replenish the neutralizing agent. The only problem I see with this method, is that in situations like mine, where I have to pump the neutralized condensate overhead to a receiver, the 5 gallon bucket works great.

Squeeze that baby one for me.

ME

jackchips_2

Interesting topic

that seems to open more questions.

Are all contractors neutralizing the condensate?

How many units are being installed that neutralizing is not taking place and what happens to the condensate and the carrying pipes?

If you do put in the bucket or PVC chamber, how many owners have any idea what to do when it has to be replenished?

What happens when a home is transferred from an owner who knows to one who has no clue?

Small details or huge problems?

Jack

Unknown

Pipe Cleaner

HR,

I once measured the condensate coming from an LPG fired MZ as low as 2.6 pH. I've never considered bottling the stuff. I wonder what else it can be used for? Scrap copper for neutralization? Hmmmmm Makes you wonder

GrandPAH;-)

For what you'll spend scrounging around for the appropriate materials & your labor, Viessmann neutralizers seem like a good value at fewer than two hundred bucks. JMO

Wallace Radiant Design

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ALH_4

Neutralization

I have never tried this but, what about a cartridge water filter? Some of the larger ones would fit all of the pellets from a Viessmann neutralization unit. I poured the pellets from a small vitodens neut unit into a standard sized (approx 12" tall) filter housing with 3/4" tappings and about 2/3 of the pellets fit. Just add a pipe in the center where the filter would be and drill some holes at the bottom of the pipe. I guess I would still use the Viessmann replacement pellets just to make it simple. Seems like it would work.

-Andrew

Dave Yates (PAH)

dang it - once was 20/20

Same thing here. Chust that the mechanical side of things wasn't inspected prior to this past year & still doesn't get much more than a glance. Practically no one is adding a neutralizer in our area.

We have this funky loophole in the PA code that lets an installer get by without a permit or inspection if the fuel source remains the same and the Btu rating remains the same. Never mind it was installed some 100 years ago! On the other hand, if you take the time to do it right and your heat loss calc shows a smaller size will do quite nicely, or you change fuels, then you'll need a Manual-J calc, permit that costs $$$ for lost time and a fat fee and inspection(s). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which way that's driving the science of doing things right!

Hell's bells - in new construction, the common practice is to simply drill a hole through the concrete floor and let the condensate dump into the stone bed. No traps either, so that's a nice conduit for radon to be drawn into the air side if that's a furnace. Lots of funk under the floor!

I can't get local inspectors to be interested in these issues. We've got one character who does drive-by inspections when contractors are working on site and then stops by when the job site is vacant. He won't tell a contractor if he sees something he doesn't like and often waits till the job is just about completed to send them a letter rejecting their work. Or he'll show up unnounced and not speak to anyone as he snoops around. You supposedly can reach him - between the hours of 6 AM and 7 AM - only - but he doesn't answer the phone - lets it go to an answering machine instead and calls back a day or three later. We have yet to bump heads.

So, how do we move this issue forward?



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Dave Yates (PAH)

here's someone headed for hugs!

A sneak peek ME. On the 24th, we will gather to greet them as they arrive in the US. Hugs are assured(G).

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Paul Rohrs_4

Here is our version

We used crushed marble as opposed to limestone. I will wait and see how long the "medium" lasts. We fill the stand-pipe also as that adds to the contact time.

This is pretty much how Brad describes it, but we used
3 x 3 x 1½" tees. I like having the reducer coupling collecting because there is no chance for restriction. We could make it a lot larger scale for bigger commercial jobs.

Regards,

PR

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Robert O'Connor_12

Grand-PAH

So long as you can see that lil Lily, you'll be all set.

Many mechanical installations do go through with little more than a glance for many-o-municipalities. The problem as I see it is education. The state of New Jersey had this mechanical inspectors license on the table a few years ago and wanted the masses to obtain them, then took it off the requirement list and now I'm not sure what the status is. Many inspectors got mechanical licensure and are happily on the right road/track, but your right, the work isn't getting the attention (inspections) that truley are warrented.

Tying to get the locals to adopt a state wide "Uniform Construction Code" will prove difficult but not impossible. An Administrative adoption would certainly be the first step in acheiving this, then you can introduce regulations (codes) in whole or in part.

The next step is the licensure of these inspectors. Just because ol' Skeeter (PA thing) did most of the hook ups in that county certainly doesn't qualify him and I would not want to use the word "Grandfather" them in either. Testing would be the only way to gauge their competence and passing would be the only way I'd license them.

Dave, you have your finger on it, its just going to take time and perserverence(sp?), but I would think you would prove to be the guy I'd want to get it started.

The state of New Jersey isn't perfect by way of all this but does posses a system (N.J.A.C. 5:23) that could be used in PA that I feel would not only raise the bar on what will or won't pass for inspection but will educate the inspectors, mandate state licensure and or certification and in the end ol' Skeeter (your current competition) will be sh&% out of luck because his inability to pass the examination(s) therefore making you a very busy and wealthy man.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

ps: Kiss the baby!

Dave Yates (PAH)

Danged interesting

OK, two questions:

Does pH affect bouyancy? In other woids, will low pH fluids rise and float over neutral pH?

Given that we're introducing low pH fluids warmer than the housed fluid, shouldn't the discharge be piped from that filter's outlet to within an inch or two of the bottom? That way, the warmer (thiner) fluid would slowly filter down through the media as it either cools or more (warmer) fluid is introduced. Seems like a safe-waste on both ends is in order to observe flow and prevent siphonage. Could be an open T, although a second trap on the outlet side of the T for the home's drain line would continue to be necessary.

A set of probes to capture delta-T data and the GPH would render Btu's retained.

Imagine the lives our wives would have if we all lived next door to each other(G)!

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Dave Yates (PAH)

What if

I have a video production company. Think there'd be any interest in something not too long that hits on issues for educating inspectors - both the municipal types and home inspectors? Installers will change the way they install once inspectors start flunking problems like radon funk-drains. Imagine the impact home inspectors could have! But, they'd need a rule in writing to back them up and municipal inspectors who would back them up.

BTW, PA did adopt a state-wide uninformed code. They forgot one thing during the 5+ years they debated the issue before passing the bill: training inspectors & having enough inspectors. By the time it was passed, the loopholes made it look like swiss chesse. We're thousands of qualified inspectors short, which has reated a real mess. The builder's assn has zeroed in on PA's newly adopted codes with their lobbyists and we're headed towards what makes the builder's life easier, rather than what's best for protecting the consumer's health (speaking strictly from the PHVAC side of things). I'd gladly speak before PA's ligislature if given an opportunity, but no one seems interested in a lone voice that doesn't carry the threat of votes or enticements for junkets to exotic places. If nothing else, it'd create a stir for a few minutes(G).

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[Deleted User]

Thats the one....

Looks just like Dave from Denvers..

ME

hr

I like it Andrew

I suppose a guy could lay that on it's side. Feed into the bottom and let the fluid flow out the top.

They make nice mounting brackets for them also.

I'm not sure what if any harm comes from dumping condensate in the PVC sewer lines?

Certainly in a subdivision there would be enough water in the sewer system piping to dilute a small stream from a 100K boiler.

I'm on a septic and the leach field is all crushed limestone anyways. I'm thinking the 3 or 4 gallons per day max probably flows right through the septic without much, if any, harm.

hot rod

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Robert O'Connor_12

Video-PAH?

Good idea if watching it is madated and you get a test afterwards that you must pass. What we do in NJ is send our inspectors to school. When you apply for a permit a tiny surcharge of typically a few dollars is send back to the state (DCA) Department of Community Affairs and with this money depending on which or how many licenses you hold determines how many classes (seminars) you must take, so the more licenses you hold, the more you have to go to school. I really like some of the classes they give and whats even better is you get to choose what class and where to attend and the best part is its free (DCA training fee as mentioned above)

I've been attending these continued education courses for quite a while now and I must say they (depending on the topic) are really informative. On the other side of the counter is the plumber who too now is madated to go for continued education (different courses) before each license renewal for 5 contact hours (I know its not much but alot of these guys really need it to keep curent) and these are good for me because holding the masters license too lets me speak with alot of other plumbers and they can voice there concerns about code and enforcement issues.

As far as the point you raised about not having enough inspectors, I'd review your uniform code as it pertains to the inspection process first, but we mandate that either each town has their own or they opt out and the resonsibility falls on the state. In the great state of New Jersey we have N.J.A.C. 5:23-2.18(c)1. INSPECTIONS: Which basically puts the enforcing agency (the town) on notice, giving them 3 business days to make the inspection(s) upon proper notification.

I do believe the home inspection industry as a whole is woefully inadaquate and potential property buyers rely on them way too much, that being said the certification should be replaced with a license which includes mandatory work experience thats VERIFIED and they should too carry insurance (kinda like a doctors malpractice insurance). You now know yourself the current way they are handling this is a joke a people are getting duped everyday.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

ALH_4

Even better

> I suppose a guy could lay that on it's side.

> Feed into the bottom and let the fluid flow out

> the top.

>

> They make nice mounting brackets for

> them also.

>

> I'm not sure what if any harm comes

> from dumping condensate in the PVC sewer

> lines?

>

> Certainly in a subdivision there would

> be enough water in the sewer system piping to

> dilute a small stream from a 100K boiler.

>

> I'm

> on a septic and the leach field is all crushed

> limestone anyways. I'm thinking the 3 or 4

> gallons per day max probably flows right through

> the septic without much, if any, harm.

>

> hot

> rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Brad White_34

Interesting postulate

I would suspect, Dave, that the pH has little to do with bouyancy. It is all basically water with CO2 in suspension plus traces of sulphur and nitrogen compounds. Temperature effect aside I see little difference in density. That said, the colder stuff will make it's way out allowing the warmer stuff to "get down to it".

I would have these piped up as if an indirect waste with airgap so you can pull up a chair and enjoy the show...

The condensate that comes out of my MZ is lukewarm but then it sits inside the internal trap which holds about a cup and a half for trap seal volume. I get about a gallon an hour by eye, have not measured it.