soldering tips

Eric Johnson_3

All I meant by that is getting the solder to move up into the joint rather than sidesways or down. I realize that gravity doesn't play much a role (if any) in the process, but trying to do it is intimidating for amateurs like me. I can do it, but prefer not to.

Dave_4

hay guys i have been redoing allot of pipes in my house for all my plumbing so far no problems and no leaks but maybe you can give me some tips

here are some problems i have sometimes

whats the best way to go about soldering multiple joints that are real close together ie street 90's
so that when i do it they don't slip apart

sometimes end caps when i heat them like to slip

also what's the best way to get nice clean tight joints?

any tips would help also when i do ball valves i don't heat the valve but just the pipe in front of the joint is this okay

i did all my heating last year with no leaks or problems in one shot but just want to improve on how i solder and get clean tight joints

thanks
Jason

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Soldering

If the joints are coming apart as you are soldering, you might want to give them a little squeeze with your channel locks prior to soldering. This will make the joint ever so slightly out-of-round and lock them together. Again, this should be done gently.

I always wipe extra flux off the joint before I start soldering because if you don't, the flux will start to run as it heats up and the solder will follow the flux and look like a mess.

Ball valves......I heat the valve, not the pipe; same with fittings. If you don't heat the one with the greatest mass, the solder won't stick and you will get a leak.

I don't like to use corrosive flux like Laco; we use a flux made by Crest/Good.

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Dave_4

thanks so much Allen so like hose spigots and stuff all you would do is take them apart before you solder them so you don't harm the rubber seat right?

i like your tip on a clean joint to take some flux off the front :-)

and next time i will try the Chanel lock on end caps ;-)

thanks Allen
Jason

Weezbo

Well, Dont lose your grips*~/:)

By putting the "Squeeze" on em and then turning the pipe or fitting it will hold better. Better than What? thats one of the enigmas of my sayings

BTW if you make it a habit to never solder a valve of any type closed or fully open ,(unless there is water behind it) you wont ruin it.

unless you are really trying

David Sutton_6

Keep a eye on the amount of heat..

that you appying and keep the flame on the inside of the socket that you sweating, as soon as the solder begins to flow remove the heat, and wipe the joint. after the joint has cooled enuff take a damp rag and clean the fitting good , keeps it from turnning colors down the road...David.

Eric Johnson_3

more soldering tips

I always wipe the joint with steel wool after applying the solder but before it hardens. This makes a nice looking joint and allows you to inspect it a little better after you're done. Just be careful that you don't splash molten solder into your eyes.

I always try to avoid soldering "up hill." Usually you can work around the need to do that by planning ahead.

It's a good idea to avoid trying solder a joint if there's any pressure in the system. If you can vent out the section you're working on by opening a valve or a boiler drain, etc., any steam created by the process can vent out somewhere other than the joint you're trying to fill.

Cleanliness, of course, is critical. I like to clean beyond the area being soldered, including the outside edges of fittings being soldered, especially if they're not new.

When filling a system following your work, add the water slowly if possible and listen for air leaks in the places you've soldered. If you hear any air escaping, shut off the water immediately and re-solder the joint. If you let it get to the point where water is spraying or squirting out, life gets a lot more complicated.

Water is Enemy Number One. An old plumbers' trick for keeping water away from the work area ON DOMESTIC WATER SYSTEMS ONLY is to jam pieces of white bread into the pipe. That will hold the water back long enough for you to make a decent connection. Allegedly, the bread (probably toast by this time) will dissolve fairly quickly and pass through the system and eventually into a drain.

When working on a hydronic heating system, alternating sessions of prayer and profanity are your best bet for keeping water at bay.

I've never had any luck trying to add more solder to a leaky joint. Admit defeat, take it all apart and start over from scratch if you're serious about making it work.

That's going to involve cleaning out the solder from the fittings and the pipe. Clean the pipe off by heating and wiping with steel wool. Fittings can be cleaned the same way by poking the steel wool in and wiping. If you can get the fitting off, replace it with a new one. If that's not possible, heat it and bang it onto a wood surface. The molten solder will wind up on the wood and the connection will be relatively clean. When all else fails, a Dremmel with a grindstone bit can be used.

This is probably old news to professionals, but they're just a few things I've picked up over the years as a DIY homeowner.

Brad White_9

To expand in David's point

about wiping joints: Make sure it is a DRY rag. You may be tempted (once!) to use a damp rag as a heat sink, but you will generate steam almost immediately. You will speak in tongues and any children within earshot will double their vocabulary.

Damp rags and steel wool after the joint is cooled is a fine thing to do.

Unknown

1 more tip

in the case of the slipping fittings, i find that if you apply heat to the pipe or the street fitting before the female socket, the pipe will expand, locking it in place, thus preventing it from slipping out.

Eric Johnson_3

Do you heat the pipe or street connection before or after applying the flux, or do you flux the female section only?

J.C.A._3

Brad,

Good thing those kiddies are in school when I'm doing a service on the homesteads boiler. Even the parents have learned a few new ones then!

Jason, soldering is like just about everything else....it takes time and the more you do, the more you learn. Hell, 21+ years and I'm still learning. Like someone else said, wiping away the running/"stray" flux before putting the solder to the joint will make it flow where it belongs and make a nice looking joint. Practice practice practice. Chris

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Best soldering tip I ever received was "tin the tube and fitting". Believe the quote was "Me daddy would kill me if I didn't..."

1/2" and 3/4" usually sweats nicely saving things like a street el in a tee or in tight spaces...

For 1" or larger or if in any way in doubt, thoroughly clean and lightly flux fittings, heat and apply solder to "tin". For tube clean and then use a pencil--yes a pencil--to draw a line around the tube at the insertion point then heat and apply solder to tin. Assemble with light flux on both, bring together and use the minimum amount of heat to make the joint.

Eric Johnson_3

solder before assembling?

Mike,

Are you saying to put a coat of solder on both the tube and the fitting before putting them together, let them cool, add flux, join and heat?

RonSBC

Heat the piece....

Heat the whole fitting and associated pipe don't focus so much on the joint. you will get beter capilllary atraction for a better joint and wont over heat specific sections of the piping.

johnnyd

gloves

Try wearing fairly thick white cotton gloves while you're sweating. Work good to wipe the joint while it's still hot, prevent burns, etc. Used 'em for the first time sweating in my house plumbing...I think I'll always use them form now on. Learned this from my BIL's dad...master plumber.

ScottMP

Roosterboy

Clean, clean and clean. If you know those three things you can solder

A clean joint , both pipe and fitting, need to be wire brushed clean. No seams that will hold dirt need to be clean because thats wher your leak will be. Most flux is over used, I agree, wipe off the excess flux. Heat the pipe first and then wipe off the flux that flow away. Allways heat the pipe first. When doing only the joint the pipe must be heated thru the fitting wall. Thats where alot of ball valve damage comes from, over heating to get the solder to flow.

Heta the pipe first, then the joint. Move the flame around the joint for even heating. By the way, a hot flame tip with a small pattern is better than a home owner "blowtorch". Put the solder on the opposite side of where your torch is, this will flow the solder around to the flame. Wipe with a dry soft rag and use a clump of rag to wipe with instead of running your fingered covered by the rag. You'll wind up pushing the joint and also increase your chance of a burn.

To crimp the fittings with channel locks, turn the fitting a 1/4 of the way from where you want it and give a squeeze. Then turn it back to the location you want and the joint should hold its place. Also try doing a couple of joints and letting them cool, that will hold the system and you can move to the next couple.

I am not sure what is ment by soldering " uphill ", but you should see some of the places where I have soldered.

I have only tinned joints over 2". I suppose 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" would be helpfull but I think alot of 1" joints would be a real pain . Clean, clean and clean does the trick.

Chris is right, it takes alot of practise and its an Art. Thats why guys don't like the Pro-Press. But still the design and layout are the toughest and a good Pro-Press looks very neat.

Scott





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Albert Huntermark

A lot of good advice!

Being a master plumber for over 25-years and having done a lot of soldering!, I can say that there was a lot of good advice answered here. I even learned a new trick or two! One thing that I would like to add is to try to avoid building pressure while heating the joints as you solder. This can occur if there is a little water in the line, or at times just the fact that the air in dry piping is being heated. This is the reason that caps can mysteriously starting sliding off horizontal lines as you heat them, or the solder keeps bubbling as you are applying it. Always try to leave a faucet open or some kind of valve somewhere in the piping that you are soldering. This will relieve any pressure that builds up.

[Deleted User]

From the wall archives...

Date: February 04, 2006 10:24 AM
Author: Mark Eatherton (@hotmail.com)
Subject: That was a VERY wise man....


I'm in the same camp as him. Water and soldering do NOT mix. Think about the dynamics involved.

You clean the pipe and the fitting to remove....OXIDATION.

You apply flux to avoid.... OXIDATION.

Water in and of itself, causes..OXIDATION. Especially when it is super heated.

Flux is THE major # 1 reason for long term copper pipe failure. For the longest time, the CDA (copper Development Association) was condemning failed joints due to hydraulic erosion corrosion. One of their young scientist went back many years, looking at all of the failed joint samples and found that the actual cause of failure was FLUX CORROSION, not HEC as originally thought.

With flux, the old addage of "if a little bit does a little good, then a LOT should do a LOT of good" does not hold true. The least amount of flux, the better. As a matter of fact, when I'm demonstrating proper soldering skills in a school setting, I apply the flux using conventional (flux brush) methods, then I wipe the pipe and fitting off with a clean paper towel. If you hold up two cleaned pipes, one with the excess flux wiped off, and the other with no flux applied at all, you have to look VERY carefully to discern the difference. That is how much flux is proper and necessary.

Now, as to how to solder using the state of the art water soluable fluxes, thats a WHOLE different story. In the days of old, when petroleum based fluxes were the norm, and water soluable had not been invented, you could fry the CRAP out of the joint with your torch, and it would still tin and draw. These days, the flux has a real low fry point, where the joint goes dry and oxidizes. If you are not right on top of things, the joint will not tin and draw properly. As you are heating the joint, the flux goes through different stages. It starts as a paste, becomes a liquid, starts to bubble, then goes dry. It's just between the bubbling stages and the dry stage that you need to start applying solder and backing off the heat. Leave the heat on for too long before applying the solder, and you're screwed. And there ain't NO amount of "doctoring" with the flux brush that will revive the joint. Might as well start from scratch.

Now remember, if you are following the natioanl code, on potable water piping, you are REQUIRED to use water based fluxes. If you have water in the joint whislt soldering, it is disolving the flux and allowing the water to see the cleaned copper, which will oxidixe, and as we all know, oxidized copper will not tin...

If I find myself in a difficult situation whereby I can not get the joint perfectly dry to solder, I will consider the use of a non soldering technology, like ProPress or Shark Bite. If that is not available, we carry small wet vacs on our trucks for the specific purpose of applying a vacuum up stream of the soldering process to hold the water back long enough to solder the joint. I've actually put 1/4" copper into the end of my vacuum hose, stuck it into and through the face of a valve to stop water from getting to the joint, soldered the ball valve into place, pulled the 1/4" tubing out, and closed the ball valve to give my dry conditions.

Now you know more about soldering than you ever wanted to...

Then, there are compression type ball valves...Don't get me started:-)

Listen to your early mentor. Water and soldering do NOT mix, regardless of what other practicioners may tell you. Their "doctoring practice" may hold long enough to get through warranty period, but the joint will eventually fail the test of time, possibly causing catastrophic damages due to their negligence.

It is simply amazing what an uncapped 1/2" joint on the top floor of a 2 story home can do... Don't ask me how I know.

ME


Additionally, with new comers, the biggest problem they have is OVER heating the joint. Flux fries, and when it does, solder doesn't stick. Flux goes through different phases. Starts as a paste. When heated, goes liquidus, then starts to bubble, then dries. THIS is the point you want to start backing off the heat and applying solder. If you continue to pour the heat to it excessively after this point, the joint fries and you have to start all over again. No amount of "doctoring" will fix a fried joint.

Practice makes perfect.

ME

JimGPE_21

Timely....

Didn't think I'd need this thread quite so soon...

While hanging some drywall in my kids' bathroom over the weekend, I ran a drywall screw through the dead center of the hot water pipe to the master shower. Could not have hit center better with a laser.

First thing I did was review this thread and cut the piping out so the remaining pipe could dry out real well before I fired up the ol' torch.

Joint held first time. Not too bad for one who does not do this sort of thing for a living!

Thanks for the great advice. Before the thread, I was a believer in Moor's Law regarding flux: If some is good, more must be better. I am a changed man!

Jim.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yes. VERY light on the flux and a touch more solder when you make the joint. I only do this for tube larger 1" or larger or with ¾" when the joint is hard to access.

Plumdog_2

To lock a joint from slipping

take your pliers and put a little kink right near the edge of the male part. This will make it stick in there good enough to work on but will not cause loss of the correct clearance between pipe and fitting that will occur if you egg it and twist. The clearance should be exact for a good joint; without tight spots or loose spots.

Jerry_15

A ton of good advice already: heat the fitting not the pipe, specially if it's running up hill, not to much heat, water based flux, so it doesn't make you sick, don't run out of gas in the middle of a job, and get a pro-press and leave all that sweat stuff on the truck. I keep it for emergencies

BigRed

1\"

1" tubing is not large

BigRed

avoid the pressure

To avoid the pressure build up you can heat the pipe away from the fitting until it glows and then let it cool for just a second and run the solder, the cooling pipe and air in the pipe will shrink while you run the solder. this move is last option and it works!

ScottMP

Heat the pipe first

Jerry, you always want to heat the pipe first, then the fitting. On 1/2" this might not matter as much, but when you get up to 1" and more it matters alot. You don't get even heat as you try and heat the pipe thru the fitting. The fitting will expand faster and you can have the fitting slip on you. You can over heat the fitting and burn the flux while waiting to heat the fitting.

This comes from twenty eight years of soldering.

Scott

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Jerry_15

If you've got the space, and can shield it, braze the hole with silver stick. Special flux, or none at all. I've done this many times without cutting in a coupling.

Eric Johnson_3

Pro Press

I read this and thought, "Pro Press, that sounds interesting. Maybe I'll checkitout!"

So I googled Pro Press and learned that the basic equipment runs well in excess of $2,000. The fittings ain't cheap, either. Guess I'll stick with my $35 blue-bottle gas rig. If I want to get down, I'll just score a bottle of Mapp gas.

Jerry_15

You must work by the hour, and with that mindset, you always will. Do you serve fries with that?

Eric Johnson_3

Flame this!

Actually, I'm a magazine editor working for a salary. I just like to do my own plumbing & heating work in my spare time. Didn't mean to offend anybody's sense of professionalism.

Jerry_15

Sorry, didn't mean to offend, and I think it's great that you enjoy doing your own plumbing work, I still do some of mine ( although I've stopped changing my oil), but if you hired a guy for top dollar, and he showed up pushing a shopping cart full of hand tools, and took all day to do a job (a very nice job, with excellent workmanship) or another guy who had that $2,000 tool and had your water back on in an hour, which one would you choose?

Eric Johnson_3

It all depends on your perspective

It's funny. I cover the logging & sawmilling industry in the Northeast and I'm involved in some boards like this one where homeowners who heat with wood have questions about chain saws and woodcutting safety equipment. People come on the board and say things like they just got a saw at WalMart and you know, what kind of tennis shoes and ballcap should they wear when they cut wood? So, like you, I try to point out that safety, good tools and a professional attitude are important regardless of whether you're risking your life for a living or just in your spare time. That said, I still think the $2,000 tool is a little overkill in my situation.

Jerry_15

Of course it is; but a lot of the people on this site do this stuff for a living, and don't mind spending some money on expensive tools, or training seminars, or insurance. Well, actually, we do mind, but as Hunter Thompson would have said "We are, after all, professionals".

bob_50

Tips

a couple little things I've picked up over time. On larger(2" to 4") tubing while the solder is liquid give the fitting a few raps with your pliers or somethin and then apply solder again. Sometimes you get a bubble of flux in the joint, this will break it. If you have to make a joint in a tight place where you can only get one hand in (the one with the torch) and you can't get your other hand in to feed the solder. Run the solder through a couple of feet of 1/4"OD tubing that way you can apply the solder with your hand several feet from the fitting, with the other controling the torch. bob

jim lockard

Eric

As you have said Propress my not be for you, But I love mind and feel that the price of the machine with all the high dollar fittings is more then worth the money. Rigid Propress best money I ever saved. Best Wishes J.Lockard