converted or not

GusHerb

Whats the best way to get broken air vents out of radiators.

GusHerb

converted or not

We have a 1903 apartment building in chicago. We bought recently. There is hot water radiators with a gas boiler from around the sixties. And im wondering if it was converted from maybe one or two pipe steam. Or retrofitted as hot water later.Anyway i'm wondering if anyone could give me some tips on finding out whether it was steam or not.

Dennis

Why,

would you even care to know for other than for historical reasons? To convert the place back would definetly put you into negative cashflow, not to mention the increase in maintenace. Besides you would need a full time guy sleeping in the boiler room to turn the system on every time someone started knocking on the pipes.
Never go back! Besides if you start poking around you may find that nasty asbestos they rapped around those steam pipes, and that would be bad.

Steamhead (in transit)

Dennis, there are more reasons

than just history. If that system was steam and someone converted it to hot water, it might be leak-prone. I'd certainly want to know that history if I was buying such a building.

JH, first look at the radiators. If the supply and return connections are the same size, it was always hot-water. But if the return is smaller than the supply, it was probably converted from steam. If this is the case, you may see old radiator trap housings on the return connections.

The same sizing applies to the mains in the basement. The returns on 2-pipe steam or Vapor systems were considerably smaller than the steam mains. This can cause balancing problems if you try to convert these systems.

I don't recommend converting steam systems to hot-water. There are just too many things that can- and do- go wrong. If you're buying a building with a converted system, you need to be aware of these potential problems. Go here for more:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=22

I have found that it's much more cost-effective to fix steam systems than to try to convert them.



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GusHerb

yes

the pipes are the same size. there are no steam trap housings. And the asbestos was removed a while ago. So the system has always been hot water i guess. do you know when hot water became popular?

GusHerb

yes

Oh and just for the history

Brad White_30

Hot water first became popular

in the late 1800's. The first hot water systems were open gravity systems developed in Canada largely in response to US-developed and perennially exploding steam systems.

Gravity hot water is characterized by larger pipe sizes (compared to modern systems certainly), pitched piping and often quite articulate flow patterns. By this statement I mean to say that each circuit was roughly equal in resistance to the others. When properly designed the heat was even and quiet. Because the boilers tended to fire more on colder days and less on warmer days, they experienced "outdoor reset" before the term was ever known.

Forced hot water came into popularity not much before 1928 when Thrush marketed the first practical circulator pump. (Others may have other sources, this is from an older Thrush catalog I had years ago stating they had the first patent on it.)

Forced hot water probably did not really take off until after WWII when electrification of the country was more complete. (In the 1930's my grandfather worked as a lineman for the Central Vermont Power Co. doing rural electrification, so there were a lot of areas that were definintely not using pumps. Or indoor plumbing for that matter.

So, I would surmise that your system, if hot water, was originally gravity.

From the lack of traps my initial thought was "of course it is and was hot water". But ever learning on the Wall, there were some trapless systems using water seals in lieu of traps. So there is a chance it may have been steam at one time.

Steamhead (in transit)

Then it was always hot-water

One of the things you want to check is the circulator size as opposed to the installed radiation. Get Dan's book "E.D.R." if you haven't already, determine how much radiation is in the building and take that number here to see if the system is over-pumped like so many systems are:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=125

You'll also want to insulate the basement mains with fiberglass. Along with right-sizing the circulator, this will save a significant amount of fuel. Then you can look into putting TRVs in the apartments, and controlling the system with outdoor reset if you're not already doing so.

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Brad White_30

If Steamhead says it has always been hot water

then it is so.

GusHerb

might be

yes the pump mite be oversized cuz it was put in and later rads were removed. New boiler on the way in spring along with new pump.2 apartments 3 floors 3rd floor is quite cold 1200 sq ft with six rads(all valves open). 2nd floor is 1200sq ft with three rads (used to be more)and it is warm trv's are a good idea.

Steamhead (in transit)

Try to find out

how much radiation was removed. Then allow a bit extra- but not too much- for the pump size, since the larger pipes are still there with extra water to be circulated.

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jim lockard

Rigid tool Co

Makes an extractor, Most Bleeders are brass so you can drill and then remove and retap. Best Wishes J.Lockard