Update to \"GB142 Technical Question\".

J.C.A._3

Buderus is on track with their early summer projections for an outdoor reset compatible control.

I looked at both scenerios when installing my first, and am in the process of installing my 2nd. For the description in their literature, and the way both of these installs were chosen I'm very confident that we made the right decision.

I would/am waiting to love an outdoor reset feature for this boiler.

Both I, and my customers love the footprint for it, and the benefits they can provide, given the perfect situations we have now used them for. I'd also like to feel comfortable selling these to quite a few more ....when everything eventually falls into place.

Thanks Glen, and a special thanks to Joe @ Buderus. I know you're trying to do the best you can with what you are dealt and taught. The tech department up in N.H. is top notch and are the link between us and the factory. If we let them know how we want to use their product, these guys are the ones who will TEACH the factory how to ship it FOR us. Chris

Glenn Harrison_2

First, my apologies for taking so long...

as I know many of my fellow wallies have been waiting for my update to my Thanksgiving post titled GB142 Technical Question

After numerous conversations with my supplier, my Buderus rep, and Buderus, it was finally determined that Buderus Holland had neglected to remove the 167º lockout built into the RC10 indoor thermostat, that is required in Europe, and they neglected to tell Buderus America of said lockout temp.
I was finally sent a supposedly reprogrammed RC10 thermostat, which I installed, and found out the reprogramming did not work. At this point, my Buderus rep decided to provide a Taco PC700 outdoor reset control, and SR504 Expandable pump relay panel. These were installed and now the system does reset. However, the burner is now an on/off burner unless it achieves the maximum water temp set at the boiler. So know I have a boiler that will reset and condense more, but will not modulate. So the boiler is still not running at max potential, but at least with the reset my customer is reasonably happy.

Now to vent my frustration. I would like say I have lost a lot of my faith in Buderus Corporate. They were so busy releasing this boiler under pressure from contractors and knowing they were losing market share to other manufacturers, that they didn't cover all their bases in the European to American conversion. They also released a boiler that should have been held back until the outdoor reset, and/or modulating interface controls were available so that in a high temp application this boiler could be used to it's full modulating, condensing, high efficiency potential. I can assure all reading this that we will NOT put any more GB142's in high temp applications, until better controls are available, and we will debate as to using the GB142 on future low temp applications. The ultimate vibe I got from this whole scenario is Buderus America was too eager to get this unit out on the market and not prepared enough to support it, as it took over a month to get a final answer, and then the "solution" did not even work right. And then of course there is all the waisted time and money spent on numerous service calls and phone calls on this boiler, and a customer who will swear at Buderus from now on instead of swearing by them.

One last thing, I do want to say that I do not put any blame on Joe Kennard of Buderus, as he was very helpful with the information he had available during the course of this problem, and is an all around great and knowledgeable man. This whole scenario goes all the way to the top of Buderus corporate America, and Buderus Holland.

Keith_8

reaction

The reaction to the problem is what is disturbing.

Kinks are alway's going to be in the product. It doesn't matter what service or product you supply at some point you are going to respond to a unplanned situation. How you handle the matter is another thing.

Any time you get right in front of it and take responcibility the customer has a sense of confidence. When you don't respond with any urgency the customer gets frustrated and assume no one cares.

What else are they supposed to think?

Keith

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Frustration understood but why did you need such a generally high supply temperatures to begin with and, knowing such requirement why would you pick the Buderus GB 142?

If you chose by brand only you made a very poor choice as that boiler with the intended control is unable to drive a high-temp system. Why? Because to do so it becomes relatively inefficient and the purpose of that boiler AND control is EXTREME efficiency!!!! Government mandates aside I cannot blame Buderus for not compromising their own highly advanced design to drive a poorly suited system.

If you chose based on salesmen's recommendations I can only blame you for not verifying that the salesmen actually knew what he was talking about.

When this boiler first came out, I publicly mused regarding its' control and abilities. Gist was that while an exceptional and in some ways vastly superior control system, it was not particularly well suited to many "American" systems.

Someone from Buderus contacted me privately and I intentionally deleted comments at their request. Perhaps that was a mistake...

I tend to agree with your statement that, "This whole scenario goes all the way to the top of Buderus corporate America."

Glen: This is intended as sharp, constructive, sincere criticism (both negative and positive)--not any form of attack on you or Buderus. Please consider this in your replies...

Glenn Harrison_2

Mike,

first, if you haven't please read the original thread from November that I linked to above. We choose Buderus because we are a Buderus dealer. The customer choose the GB142 due to it's higher efficiency potential. I was under the impression the indoor reset was the best way to control the GB142, and this system was working fine until it got to cold out for 167º water temp to maintain comfort levels. If the 167º lockout had been eliminated in the first place, I'm quite sure this system would have continued to run flawlessly. Instead, the lockout existed, Buderus America did not know about the lockout, and Buderus Holland took there sweet time admitting to the lockout, and then Buderus America tried to reprogram a control, that I suspect can't be reprogrammed, but has to have a new chip installed. Meanwhile I'm stuck with an unhappy customer, threatening lawyers and wanting a different boiler, while we all wait almost 6 weeks for a final solution that didn't work. Then my Buderus rep donated a control package just to finalise this problem, and make the customer somewhat happy. So technically Buderus has not resolved the situation. they released a boiler with a control package unsuited for the American hydronic systems, while they take their time producing controls that are suited for American systems.

In my opinion, Buderus should have held off another six months and released the GB142 with the outdoor reset installed instead of the RC10 control. Also, more importantly, Buderus Holland needs to do a better job of communicating to Buderus America. The ball was definitely dropped here. Just my opinion of course.

Dennis

Man am I happy!

I was thinking of installing this same boiler in a Sunday school in the very church I attend. I opted for a Weil Mclain Ultra, instead.
I see God truly loves me and is watching out for me.
I chose the Ultra just because it isn't quite as new to the market, and I had a bad feeling.

Darin Cook_2

Glenn

Myself and Mark have had many conversations about this subject. We both agree Buderus knew they were missing out on alot of sales here. The GB got pushed through with out an "Americanized" control for our design scenarios. Though not every GB that was released here maxed out on 167' water. I have numerous high temp applications in service and they work fine. Modulation based upon delta T is still a huge energy saver compared to a bang bang CI boiler. Not to mention you can derate this boiler by a push of a button to more precisely match the heatload.

The RC10 indoor reset controller has been used by us only once(one large radiant zone). We want the outdoor reset. There are some quality control issues on the pri-sec manifolds I want addressed. Tired of fixing factory defects for free. All in all it is a boiler I like very much. It is a proven product in Europe. I will say this, we are product loyal......to a point. We are loyal to our customers, always. We did not stop installing Munchkin boilers because of overwhelming failures, we stopped installing munchkin boilers because of constant nickel and dime aggravations that we had to fix out of our own pocket. Is the customer support top notch at HTP, you betcha. But it just got to be too much hassle. If the GB is to get that way also then I would look for better product. Who knows, maybe in the end we will be Viessman only guys too. But I am not about to give up on Buderus yet. Virtually all of the product line has been trouble free for us. I believe the GB quirks will and are getting ironed out.

On the customer support side at Buderus, I have only had to call once. A new GB install would not fire and stay running. I was going crazy testing everything and trying to decipher the codes it was showing. Then I called Joe. He said, Is it a LPG new start-up? Yes it is Joe. He said , we have had a issue of propane companies not purging all of the nitrogen out of the new LPG storage tanks and it mixing with the propane and not allowing boiler to run. He was dead-on. I purged the hell out of the tank and the boiler started right up and it ran great. Thanks Joe!

Darin

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Definitely read and followed that post. It prompted me to both search for and ask about any German or European Union mandate regarding 75C limit on supply temp. It was even part of my idea for an "Americanized" control system for condensing/modulating boilers.

Unless I've missed something multiple times, you've never said what emission system is being used.

Given the problems you describe, I'd guess either multiple hydro air units with single-speed blowers or some form of bare (or nearly bare) tube radiant.

I'll bet hydro air and that you've done a nearly perfect job of calculating loss and sizing the units to normal [read American high temp] standards. I can't imagine a worse case for the GB with an RC-10. Such would be akin to putting a Ferrari engine in a Geo Metro. Such a thing has no benefits as you get neither the economy of the Metro nor the performance of the Ferrari.

A GB with RC-10 is more like putting a Geo Metro engine into a Ferrari. You'll get exceptional performance and economy as long as you don't try to go too fast...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Darin:

VERY interesting. Particularly your statement AND OBSERVATION that "modulation based on delta-t is a huge energy saver".

Too bad that the equipment capable of this simple scheme failed because of "aggravating" failures that you had to eat...

While Viessmann seems to have achieved near perfection regarding energy transfer--RADIATION OF COURSE--their control system is lacking in that it is ignorant of the desires of the occupants. While easy to use and nearly bullet-proof, it's not particularly easy to adjust for maximum efficiency. This is ESPECIALLY true with the American instruction manuals be they for the designer, installer or user.

An intelligent, frugal owner of a converted brownstone in NYC would LOVE it. Lucy might **** that Fred keeps the heat too low but there's no real comfort problem unless she lounges in a negligee and acts like Peggy Bundy...

It's high time that I SHOUT for AMERICAN INNOVATION TO MEET AN "AMERICAN" CHANGE IN HABITS.

Canasta Pete_2

Munchkin?

Munchkin = Crap with a capital K, err C

Ol' Canasta

Glenn Harrison_2

The radiation is...

High output (1") copper fin tube baseboard. This is installed in an old farm house that has been added onto multiple times/directions as the former farm family grew. The hydronic system is not original to the house, but has got to be 30 to 40 years old. Due to the way the house is built, there are certain areas that are lacking in baseboard, and of course this being an old drafty farmhouse, the water temp needs to be pretty high when it is cold out. However, we did figure out the house will heat adequately when it is in the 30's outside if the water temp is about 160º. Now the current owners are slowly taking steps to improve the envelope of the house , so this temp requirement will drop, and we have quoted adding some baseboard in a couple of areas that are accesible.

Your last statement is an interesting one. As a matter of fact my customer made a comment sort of along the lines of what you said, as they were used to turning the t-stats down during the day when everybody was at work, and noticed the system took a long time to recoup with the new boiler resetting itself. I personnally like the way the RC-10 works, as it constantly changes the burner capacity based on what is happening in the house, basically a cruise control for the Ferrari . Of course the 167º lockout it is a problem, and a multi zone system can pose a problem. I suppose if Buderus really wanted a premium control, it would involve outdoor and indoor feedback, and system setback much like the Logomatic 2107 control does, built into the GB142.

Glenn Harrison_2

Darin.

The 167º Lockout only occurs when using the RC-10, as we ultimately found out the RC-10 is programmed from Europe this way. So if you use a standard pump or zone valve scenario sending an on/off signal instead, the boiler will go to what ever temp you set the dial at. I would like to see this unit modulate based on Delta T, but when I left it last after installing the Taco reset, it would fire on low for about a minute, modulate up to high and then kick off when the reset reached the set-point supply line temp. Now maybe the computer will learn and modulate more as time goes on.

I haven't had any problems with the pri/sec manifold yet, other than making sure I use plenty of Teflon tape on the compression adapters, and making sure I use back-up wrenches when making ANY connection, to keep from torquing the tubing.

I am quite sure these quirks will get worked out, but my particular quirk, and the time involved has left me, my boss, and our customer very disappointed/aggravated.

Dave_4

Try a Triangle Tube Prestige instead

Looked at the GB 142 but opted for the Triangle Tube instead. Built in ODR, smaller in size, nice venting options, etc. Couldn't be happier. What's the big deal about the GB 142 anyway. Enlighten me. Sure wish there was something like a "road test" where PM mag would put all of the mod/con boilers to a real world test.

Darin Cook_2

Glenn

I did not know that the RC10 was the culprit on limiting boiler temp. I thought I had just gotten lucky on my boilers. I know that all these quirks will be taken care of, but is can be very frustrating. In spite of these irritants it is still a boiler I like very much. When I leave a install now using the GB, I am confident that I won't be coming back to "tweak" something. Happy Installing!



Darin

Darin Cook_2

You know

that is not a bad idea. Kind of like a Consumer Reports best buy for boilers. Have a independant testing lab line them all up, install each one, and run each one through identical scenarios and compare features of the boiler. Hey, MR.John Hall care to take a article on like that?


Darin

Ross_7

Mod-Con boiler road test

That would be the cat's ****! PM Magazine should do that!
With different applications, i.e. high temp emitters, cast iron radiators, radiant (all styles), and hydo-air.

leo g_13

I heard

that the GB should be capable of accepting tekmar net4 by summer. If so, then this could be the ultimate match!

Leo G

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