Help specify cheap

Gene_3

almost

all homes in the US should have the most efficient heating cooling systems available.

spec out System 2000 or Buderus, scrimp on the friggin paint

Gene Davis_2

Low end HW heating system

My partner and I will be building some new spec houses, small and inexpensive. We toured a couple being done by our competition, and see this for heat.

Weil McLain WGO oilfired boiler, baseboard radiators, thermostat controls unknown. We would prefer TCRVs in each room if possible.

We are talking about small 3 BR 2 BA woodframe houses, full (unfinished) basement (ICF construction), footprint about 32 x 36, 1.5 story, 1500 sf, well-insulated, 7500 heating degree days.

How should we spec out heating for the subs to bid, and in what price range would you see complete packages, furnished and installed, costing a builder?

Gene Davis_2

OK, what if I specify System2000

Is this going to be my HW source as well? Installed system price?

jp_2

cart before the horse.

i would ask the contractors what they suggest.

come here and ask about what the contractor spec'd?

Or spend a couple months on the wall learning all you can.

Ragu_5

Gene Davis....

My first thought is that it would be wise for you to hire an experienced (and trusted) Heating Pro to assist you in drawing up bid specs for these systems. With the correct heating and Domestic Hot Water systems in place, you could offer substantial energy savings to the prospective buyers of your houses.

Look at the life cycle cost of the heating/DHW systems, and not just the upfront installed cost. You could/will blow away the competition. Try it, you'll like it.


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EJ hoffman

Go to find a contractor on this site

If you dont find one listed for your area start a new thread that you are looking for a contractor in your area

Robert O'Brien

I

give you a lot a credit for even asking. The usual GC question is "What is the cheapest way to?" Where are you located? Because no Long Island girl would ever give up Tiles,Granite Countertops or Square Footage for a boiler!

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Ted_9

price

Price shouldn't be discussed here. There are many variables and reasons why.

I think what your doing is great. Talk to heating professionals before you move forward with heating.


Massachusetts

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Gene Davis_2

I am the original poster. Let's forget price and get back to specifying a system.

First of all, you must understand that we are going to be building in the absolute lowest cost area of our region. The competition is putting in oilfired WM WGO with baseboard units and very little sophistication, if any, in controls. O.R.? No. TRVs? I think so.

These are spec houses sold with no homeowner warranty, and very likely the buyers will use them as occasional winter ski hideaways, then as summer weekend houses.

They are tiny, with one little common kitchen-dining-living areas, and 10x12 bedrooms.

ALH_4

control

I recommend using a Tekmar 256 if possible. That way a switch can be installed to put the heating system into unoccupied mode when the building is not being used. I guess that doesnt make it less expensive.....

People buying summer homes and ski hideaways must have a couple hundred extra bucks for a decent control. Even if these were government housing projects, reset controls would be money very well spent.

jp_2

if thats the case

only to be used occasionally, why not a simple propane forced air system? a lot simpler.

Gene_3

Let the buyer

beware, huh?

at first it sounded like you were building year round homes, even poor people deserve hi eff.

You should consult the local building inspector and see what he will allow regarding your specific situation. Local inspectors are your final word and they can be tougher than federal regs, never weaker.

Best to find out before you build.

Get your plans, show them to the inspector and the people you plan to have install this stuff.

Anyone who would buy a home with no warranty looks in the mirror and sees an idiot.

jp_2

good point

your state my dictate whether or not a new dewelling structure has a warranty, my understand in Mich, its two years.

Gene_3

from one Gene to another

check the thread entitled BOILER RECALL , here at this site

a good example of what an inexpensive boiler will get you

that is an old antiquated design, dry base, atmospheric burners, that just like the Dunkirks, can have the flame hit the side of the chamber and create large amounts of CO

not sure what happened to these but looking at the design that's my guess

Home Depot Employee

Gene that was a cheap and uninformed shot at Crown!
The boilers on the 'recall" are mostly steam and the others are built on the steam platform for those few tankless coil holdouts that still exist. I agree there are other better water boilers but if you need a steam unit I know Viessmann doesn't make one.

Ragu_5

Gene Davis...

You are getting good advice from all concerned here. My questions:

1- No Warranty? I think we are all required by Federal Law to provide a 1 year warranty.

2- What region of the country are you in? It sounds like it is fairly cold there, with 7,000+ heating degree days.

3- Are you in a predominantly oil or gas heating part of the world?

4- Are you sure that you will be going "cheap"? Do you really mean that you will be providing good value per dollar spent?

Please get back to me, as I am intrigued. Thanks. Jack


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Gene_3

no it was not

it was 33 years of experience telling me

1, that design is from the 50's

2, dry base boilers with an open bottom for an atmospheric gas burner are incredibly inefficient

3, dry base boilers have no place in the 21st century

4, Dunkirks boiler of a very similar design was recalled in 2002, makes me go hmmmm

5, it's still a free country {barely}

Gene Davis_2

Re warranty, construction work done for a client is warranted, a spec house built for sale to the market is not. I have built and sold here, and know. The property is sold as-is, same as a used house.

Location is far upstate NY, in NY's Adirondack Park region.

Most prefer oil where we will build. A little LP is used, but not much.

There is no forced air used in residential building here, period.

Everything being done there in new construction is being done at the lowest grade possible. The market will not tolerate cost upgrades at all. Whatever bells and whistles get added, they are strictly cosmetic . . . stuff you can see and touch.

I'll not realize one more dollar of revenue by adding anything to the heating systems beyond what is being used now (which I have described earlier.)

ALH_4

cheaper still

> I'll not realize one more dollar of

> revenue by adding anything to the heating systems

> beyond what is being used now (which I have

> described earlier.)



I guess I don't understand what your question is. Why not just do what the neighbors have done? Want it really cheap? Go electric. You save installation labor and a lot of equipment. Plus you can still say you have hot water baseboard. I still encourage the use of a Tekmar 256 control.

Mark Hunt

Gene Davis


Are you asking us to help you design an even cheaper system than what the other guys are putting in?

Your post below about winter/summer houses indicates above middle income buyers. No?

I am confused as to what you want?

Mark H

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Gene Davis_2

I really know nothing about these systems. I am a GC.

My regular heating sub here (this venture is out of his territory) put in a WM Ultra unit with quite sophisticated controls, running a hydronic underfloor system that was augmented with Runtal slat baseboards at high heatloss areas, Tekmar, OR, the whole nine yards, so I have seen "good." This was in my contract work done for clients.

I have enough replies now to realize that a WM WGO is about as low as one can go, and that is what we will specify, in doing RFQs for these little specs, most of which are selling before the foundations are completed.

Plumdog_2

Economics

I'm no expert, but if the market can't bear even the smallest upgrade in heating, but the cosmetic stuff may be OK, and the little homes are selling before the foundation is done; then you can raise the price a little. What about modern steam and a domestic water system that is designed to drain back to prevent freeze-ups? Vacation homes can be a disaster waiting to happen.

Mark Hunt

Hmmm


I do a bit of work in the 'dacs.

Just where are all of these cheap summer/winter homes being built?

Mark H

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Jon_10

Help Specify Cheap

I live in the St. Law. River Valley and have a camp near Blue Mountain. I too wonder where all these cheap summer/winter home are?

Unknown

got cathedral areas?

jp_2

maybe,

cheap to build, expensive to buy?

Perry_2

Common practice

CAPNAP Housing: "Constructed At the Price Necessary to Avoid Prosecution." I've seen it - and the guy who did my energy study of my 50+ year old house says it is standard practice with many "spec" builders in a lot of areas.

It is one of the main reasons I am not intererest in new houses. I can get a sturdy and much better constructed older house and fix it up (if needed).

Perry

Ragu_5

What is an \"RFQ\"?

I have never heard that term. Please advise. Thanks.

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Weezbo

i see the numbers being ...

Just about what the General contractor doesnt want to pay....

no matter what price no matter what the quality.

Plumdog_2

Request for Quote?

bordy

Go as cheap as you can. HO don't care what boiler they are getting.

Mark Hunt

AH HA!!!!!!


JP WINS!!!

Exactly, 100% correct.

The GC even said it himself. "This is as low as you can go"....

He really did want a cheaper system.

I just want his name to add to my "do not return call" list.

PUTZ!!!!!

Mark H

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[Deleted User]

Why sell cheap??

ROugh in the home for the three basic zone classes with baseboard convector but don't finish the heat source. Let the consumer make that decision. Just offer them Best, Better and Good in that order. Chances are, you sell more of the middling boiler jobs and make more money on that then you would a Good class system.

No??

Promise the consumer that they should never run out of DHW, and they'll probably buy it. EVERYONE hates it when they run out of DHW. EVERYONE!

It's THEIR money, let THEM spend it how ever THEY want to spend it :-)

Mention a towell warmer and see if they raise their eyebrows. If they do, you got them. At almost any price.

The shinier, the better:-)

It's just money...and it's not yours.

ME

Mark Hunt

just for this statement alone


"It's just money...and it's not yours." I volunteer Matt Sweeney to shovel your driveway. TWICE if need be!

Thanks ME! You always nail it!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Gene

I saw your post and I wanted to let you knw that I can do that job for under 3500 bucs. I am in north hudson and have no problem driving t a job. Where are you located?

Big Al

Jon_10

Location

Just heard on the radio about Tupper Lake and the new proposal for a housing develoment on the former Big Tupper Ski Resort land. It sounds like they got permission to build 465 cottages and a large hotel on the property. They had to get permission from the Adirondack Park Agency to build anything inside the blue line that circles the Adirondack mountain area. If this is the area, then cheap is not going to cut it... Winter temps very often exceed -40 degrees for days on end. Sounds like this guy is the the type that would take a knife to a pistol shoot-out. Lots of luck, my friend on cheap in this area where heating is required all most 8 months of the year.

[Deleted User]

I taught Mad Dog everything I know about snowmelt...

Thanks for the kudos Mark. I think I have to give credit for that quote to John Barba. He's the king of quotes :-)

But it is true. One should never WOW themselves with their own price. It is what it is. Stick to it. Add value to the deal, like endless DHW...

ME

Ragu_5

I already was insane...

This just seemed like a good way to justify it; so far, so good!

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Gene Davis_2

Where? Just outside of Ausable Forks.

You've no idea of the market we're in.

Plumdog_2

3400

You buy the parts. I hookem up cheap.

Perry_2

Gene: I do know what market you are in - the one you created.

I have an exact idea of what market you are in. Something I learned long ago. If you think you can - you probably can. If you think you can't - you can't.

You have a belief that it is impossible to recoup - or even make money on a better heating system. Therefore you can't - no matter who is interested in buying.

Long ago - after a power plant closed where I was working and when the power industry was laying off people left and right I sold Encylcopaedia Britannica's. Now it took me a bit to learn the trade. Our office had people who always sold the lowest cost set (the plain cover - or a previous years set on discount); and one guy sold twice as many sets as anyone else. Another guy never sold anything but the premium limited edition set - and only had a few sales. I sold about 1/4 plain covers, 1/2 the nice mid groud black leather cover, and about 1/4 the premium limited edition set. But more importantly I had the most profit per sale of any of them - because I sold the most "accessories" per sale. All the other book sets ranging from the young kids encyclopeadia, bibles, dictionairies, etc, etc. Those accessories were a 50% commission item. I found something else that the people were interested once we had identified their price point for the main set of encyclopadias. I sold more accesories than the rest of the office combined - week after week after week; and my Britannica Sales were not that great as I only worked part time.

The first guy only believed that he could sell low cost sets - and did. The second guy believed that if he didn't sell a premium set that it wasn't worth the commission to sell anything else - and missed out on people who could not afford to pay an extra $1500 for a nice "unique" cover and the addition of the Great Books set (which was not that expensive to produce as there were no research or writers fees: the cover was the only difference in the encyclopaedi sets).

I beleived that I would sell them whichever cover and package deal they wanted (or thought they could afford) and that if they were interested in encyclopaedias that they would be interested in the other book or sets available - and that I would sell them those items. So, let say that the people were pinched for money and were eligible for a Previous Year (PY) set (coded on the lead - or typically if the lead was so old). My commission on a PY was about $100 ($98 rings a bell). If I added several hundred dollars in other books to the order - I just doubled my commission on the sale.

So I do know what you are selling: Houses with the cheapest possible heating system - because that is all you believe you can sell.

After Britannica shut down I sold some other things as well (including metal buildings). Health issues shut me down in sales - and I eventually reentered the job market and got back into power plant work.

When shopping for a house I saw the same pattern in home sales as well. Why is it that one person struggles to sell a very nice and solid home and a person with a junk house accross the street gets sold for more money by another person.

So I do know what market you are in: The market created by your own beliefs. It is true of everone in sales - and in many other aspects of life. Fortunately for the rest of us - and for many of the contractors on the site - there are people out there who do not fit into your market - who want and are willing to pay for a better heating system.

I do wish you the best.

Perry

ps: electric heat is the cheapest heating system you can buy and install. You could even put in an electric boiler if you somehow feel that you can sell a more expensive radiant heat system.