Insulation: Final Thoughts under Ultra Fin

Ted_9

This is a toe kick in the floor with a fan.

http://www.beacon-morris.com/html/..%5Clitlibrary%5CTWFII-7.pdf

check page 4. There is also a floor vector, no fan on that one.
http://www.beacon-morris.com/html/..%5Clitlibrary%5CBFV-4R.pdf

Massachusetts

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Heatmeister_2

Insulation: Final Thoughts under Ultra Fin

I have been working on my radiant project forever, but it is 95% complete. The new GB is running nicely, the slab in the basement(new pour)is heating up well. I have been dragging my feet to insulate under my main floor where we have installed ULTRA FIN (two runs/joist bay) in a retro/remodel because I still have baseboard in the bedrooms and wanna make sure they heat enough through the floor before I abandon them. (my gut tells me I will need to keep them and reconnect them)

Main Floors are 3/4" pine and 3/4" oak and in the bedrooms another layer of carpet. The main area stayed comfortable last night with a 3 degree night, but the bedrooms were cool. I had to crank the GB up to 160 degrees and turn up the stats in all zones including slab. Keep in mind, the floor joists were wide open with heat escaping into the entire basement space, so the basement was/is warm

What is insulation should I lean toward, price being no object. I want it done right: BAT or Foil Bubble Wrap (I've seen foil R19)? If I use Bat what R is adequate and do they make a high density because my joist are 2X10's and does if it is craft face or no paper. My understanding the manufacturer recommends at leas 4inches of plenum....is this true and critical.

I'm running out of time so I need to make an insulation decision soon. What are others using effectively?

Ted_9

fins

first are Ultra fin the aluminum panels? Are they screwed to the bottom of the sub floor? Is you say yes, then great. If they are just flapping in the joist bay, I'll let someone else comment on that. If they are screwed to the sub floor, then don't use an air gap, just insulate with
bats. Also important is to use insulation to block the ends of the joist bays. R13 would be fine if the space below is heated. Don't use the bubble foil here. And Don't bother with the fiberglass with aluminum backing. The paper one is adequate.

And if you have 2 3/4 layers of wood, then I suspect you would need supplemental heat. If that room with the carpet has 2 layers of 3/4, then its definite, you'll need supplemental.

BTW, you will need two temps for the radiant, one for slab and one for the staple up.

All of this was supposed to be engineered before the first piece of radiant went in. Your working backwards and are stuck with few options now.

Massachusetts

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G-rott

Foam board...

I like to use foam board ripped to fit between the joist. Toe-nail it in place and glue it with gun foam to create your air space.

If you want to eliminate the baseboard I saw an interesting soultion. Cut a register hole into the joist bay in the high loss area. Then add a toe kick heater under the floor. Home owner said it worked great, had a seprate t-stat in the beadrooms for the heaters under the heavy carpet and pad.

garett

Jed_2

Ultra- Fins by McDuffco

Require up to 180°F SWT to be effective. Seems To take the GB condensing advantage out of play, or, insufficient flux. With your finished floor coverings, and GB in reset or condensing mode, you're dead in the water.

Jed

Ragu_5

Ted and Jed....

Yup. The math shows that the efficiency has been negated.

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Dave Belisle

insulation

Just keep in mind if you use a craft paper covered insulation facing down . bubble rap , Styrofoam , or cover insulation with Polly the ceiling becomes flammable and will have to be covered with sheetrock.

We just installed a Ultrafin job and insulated it. We ripped down some scrap plywood strips to 4 inches . Nailed them to the bottom of the joist , and installed R19 unfaced insulation. The strips hold the insulation up , gives the owner a chance to slide pieces of sheetrock into the space if he doesn't want unfaced in his basement, and allows access to wiring and plumbing.....

( it looks like the bottoms of TJI joist , I hate those wires you push up into the joist to hold the insulation . There a pain.)

I use a lot of Ultrafin .... good choice...
It's a product that is simple to install and allows the average guy to enjoy radiant without it costing him an arm and a leg....

Dave in NH

Uni R_2

Design Temps

What were the design supply temperatures for the underfloor ultrafin and the in-floor poured circuits?

Will Merryman

Ultra Fin insulation

Hi, i just got done with an Ultra Fin install in bedroom. I ripped 2x4's in half and nailed to 2x10 joists to allow flush fit of 2" foil faced foam board.Top of insulation is 4" from fins. Another layer of 2" running perpendicular for a total of 4". I will be strapping between layers to pick up some free R's (dead air). 2" foam board with spray foam in sill pockets around outside perimeter glued and screwed and all seams caulked.Probably overkill but it is one time expense and I want it warm. 2" pan head screws with fender washers allow any future service of either wire or fins.

Under $500 for insulation.

Heatmeister_2

Temps

We will run about 150 on design day. However, I am running hotter now b/c the heat is escaping. Also. I am running way way more Ultra Fin per joist bay than average. Since we are running the tube length wise doubled up, I have 12-14 fins in a 17 foot joist bay section. Over kill but there cheap. I am surprisingly keeping the second floor comfortable without even having sprayed my rim joists or insulated yet. I will take some pics when I have a chance.

Wouldn't mind chatting with you over the phone.

Heatmeister_2

design temp

ultra fin 150, slab floor is I believe 110 ( we installed a tempering valve) works great.

Ted_9

oh this stuff

Well, I have no experience or training with this brand so disregard what I said.

Massachusetts

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

Ultra-Fin with toe kick (blower only)

I've been trying to promote this idea, it should work great.

As a rule of thumb, when you turn a natural convection situation into forced convection, the heat flux is increased 5X.

You'd have a little blower in an exterior corner of each questionable room. Don't forget to cut a matching "return air duct" at the opposite corner, and some airflow holes in the joists as needed to allow flow perpendicular to the joists(careful!)

Now wire the fan relay to make on the second stage of the thermostat and you're all set. Now UF can handle ANY room's heat loss.