Combustion testing, Not needed?

Mark Hunt

but I am sure that you attend classes other than Jim's to learn the profession you have chosen. You must also charge more to offset those investments as well. We all do.

Jim Davis is the first to say that he did not invent any of this, just as our host on this site will. Jim Davis, like Dan Holohan, took the time to study the things others ignored. Neither invented the truth, they just exposed it. Like removing a cover from a light so that everyone could see it.

There are still MANY people that choose to ignore it. Do not think for a second that every person that visits this site believes anything Dan or Jim have to say. They have been trained in "the way" and "the way" is all they know. After a person practices "the way" long enough, it becomes THEIR truth and questioning "their truth" is considered a personal attack.

So we all get to watch as the CO deaths pile up....wasn't the installers fault. I have not seen a story yet that says, "Faulty installer kills family in Boston"...nope. But I have seen PLENTY of stories about faulty furnaces and boilers and water heaters that kill people. How the heck do these manufacturers get away with selling faulty products?!?!?!? Look at all the people their faulty products have killed!

But when and how did that equipment become faulty? That is a question that not only is NEVER answered, it is NEVER even ASKED!

So welcome to the freak club. The folks that take EVERY part of their job seriously, from beginning to after burn. The folks that walk into a customers house LOOKING for potential health threats. NOT TRYING TO SELL EVERYONE UNDER THE SUN SOMETHING NEW!!! JUST PUTTING ALL OF OUR TRAINING TO USE!!! Funny thing is, each and every HO thinks that ALL pros know it and do it. You and I both know that the vast majority do not.

If Jim Davis "preaches to the choir", why is CO poisoning still THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL POISONING DEATHS IN NORTH AMERICA??

If UL listed CO alarms are so good, why is CO poisoning still THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL POISONING DEATHS IN NORTH AMERICA??

If all equipment is "set up at the factory", why is CO poisoning still THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL POISONING DEATHS IN NORTH AMERICA??

Granted, not all of these deaths are caused by "faulty" heating appliances, but a HUGE number are. WHY?????

I guess "the factory" also sets the equipment to run at it's highest rated efficiency too eh? "Brochure says 93%!! It's 93%!!". HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

The brochure is the test result!!!! HAHAHAHAH!!!!!! "Oooooo....and it's so shiny too!!!". I guess "shiny" means "more efficient". AND SAFE!!!

"I can tell how it's burnin' by lookin' at the flame. You need blue flames with a nice yellowish tip".(Gas) Really?

"I can tell how it's burnin' by lookin' at the flame. Should be close to white with a hint of yellow at the end".(Oil) Really?

These are statements I heard coming up in the industry from seasoned "pros". Same guys that adjusted refrigerant levels by grabbing the liquid and suction lines and "felt" the difference. "Bump it kid" or "Open it kid"........."Good enough". No gauges! Voila!!!

Now..........brass tacks. Of all the PHVAC contractors that frequent this site, how many do you think STILL install R/A/C equipment without GAUGES?? Of these, how many do you think install combustion appliances WITHOUT DIGITAL TESTING EQUIPMENT??? OH SNAP!!!!!!!! Cuz the good Lord only knows how many folks have been killed by "faulty refrigerant levels" in an A/C system!!! (The NATE patches look so good on the uniform...don't you think?)

You take your car to get new tires, shouldn't the tire guy have a lug nut wrench?

You go to the doctor for a check up, shouldn't he have a stethoscope?

Yet, a person who sets things on fire for a living is not to be expected to have a FIRE TESTER???? In fact, THAT guy is insulted that you should even suggest such a silly thing!After all, he's been settin' stuff on fire for years! As far as he knows, none of his customers are dead. (Well there was that one, but she was REAL old anyway. Probably died of "natural causes")

Glen, I have had the privilege of spending some QT with Jim and he has always spoken highly of you. You never give up. NEVER. You are not alone, there are quite a few "freaks" beside you. You know what is true and what is not. The truth ALWAYS wins even though we may not get to see the victory. No compromise. Ever.

Well, that is my rant for 2006. Wait til you read what I have for 2007! I started working on it in 2004. HEHEHE!

Mark H


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Xc8p2dC_2

Age of Technology?

Following the Wall for over a year, one of the many things I have learned, is the importance of combustion testing, especially newly installed boilers and furnaces.

But, I seem to live in a area, that is filled with "Old School" mentality and more that 1/2 dozen companies I have contacted, I still get the "testing not needed, when new", reply.

So what is the best way to "convince" or "perswade" companies that are highly experianced, but still give you the

"Set-up out of the box"

"Not adjustable"

"Usually, within the guidelines from the factory"

Bla, bla, bla type replies, other than to not hire them. Seems like National Code or AHJ guideline is being over looked? << Safety for All>>, Appreciate your input>

Brad White_153

I would ask the naysayers

to tell me what the array of combustion products are for a given installation.

They are likely to say, "How should I know?"

To which you can reply, "Exactly my point".

If they make a claim that it is per factory specification, I would ask to see the printout. If they "just know", call the media and be their agent.

I would say that "when new" is the most critical time to test. You have a baseline, set up for the variables not present in any factory test. (Was the factory test done with the same chimney height or venting configuration you have? Doubt it.

Why wait for a problem? Why not test when the technology is commonly available?

I was convinced.

A.J.

Do they know ?

That if they don't follow manufactures install instructions that they are going to be held liable if the s--t hits the fan. Combustion testing is not an option is's a necessity when working with fossil fuels.

Jim Davis_7

Not highly experienced if they don't test

Most equipment is designed for one set of operating parameters to meet certification. This equipment will never see those parameters again. Btu's of gas fluctuates all over the country. Mechanical room pressures, chimney pressures all have an affect on operation. No piece of equipment can be mechanically reproduced exactly alike. Most equipment is handled many times before it is installed. Burners can get misaligned, manifolds etc. Anyone that has any mechanical aptitude whatsoever would know that you cannot tune anything by input only output. This is not possible without testing.

Xc8p2dC_2

Great advice, as usuall

Two of these companies are more than 10 truck companies with over 10,000 sg ft offices/warehouses. The scary thing here is one of them, I know owns a Digital tester, but this was still their reply.

Do you think it would help [safety for all] or hurt [smaller companies that would have to purchase/train] if the industry implemented a more stringent set-up quidelines or code? or be required by the AHJ upon inspection. Thanks

GW

shame

This is what kills me; the guy who buys this stuff (we have 3 analyzers) must charge more to offset the investment and training (between me and some of my guys we've sat in front of Jim Davis' class about 6 times) , yet when the homeowner talks with his son-in-law who'se brother-in-law moonlights for a bottom-feeder plumbing company, the news comes back that "the price was too high". What a ridiculous society we live in, no regard whatsoever for compaies with expensive tools. Yes, this is a sore spot for me!

So, with that in mind Rich C, I really doubt you'll be getting too many straight answers on this. What you see here on the Wall and what you see in your town/city are two different worlds.

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bordy

boilers

Over the past 5 years I have had 13 boilers installed in investment properties I own. Mostly Utica and weil atmospheric boilers. I used 3 diferent plumbers and none of them used a combustion analyzer. I hate to say it but I was not impressed with any of them and doubt they would have the ability to operate a co analyzer.

GW

this

bud is for you. We share similar thoughts.

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Frenchie

Mark

I look forward to hearing your rant for 2007! Your posts are always informative and entertaining! Cheers!!

GW

rantomania

We bust our cookies to make a descent living. Yet when I hear of some freak accident (had a condo blow up a few towns over a few months ago) on the news, my heart races because some (well, not in this case thank Goodness) poor tradesman is going to have his heinny (SP??) handed to him, and I guess the selfish side of me hopes it's not me.

Oh, who’s Glen?

Gary Wilson


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Mark Hunt

Appreciated Jason!


If you have a chance, pick up a copy of Tolstoy's "War and Peace". Don't bother reading it, just pick it up. The paper back weighs 487 pounds and is 9,000,000 pages long!!(Or so it seems. Might only be 8,999,999 pages.....but who's counting)

I write down just about everything that comes to mind. Some stuff gets dumped, some stuff is kept. I read everything I can on this subject, even the bogus junk. I force myself to read the junk since that is what we battle against.

I have a story that I have been working on called "A nice blue flame with yellowish tips". I am going to send it to John Hall at "The News". Maybe they will publish it. If not, I will post it as a PDF file here on The Wall. Read it if you want, ignore it if you want. ("You" is generalized)

All my best sir!!!

Mark H



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Bob Sweet

Hey Mark!!

KICK IT!! You are on it my friend!!

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Gene_3

If anyone

installs or performs maintenance on ANY HVACR equipment and does not test, combustion, amps, controls, safeties, etc

they suck, they are not technicians, they are MEK-A-NICKS

show them the door

for your safety they should at the very least check the safety controls