Hit a nerve!

[Deleted User]

FLUX corrosion? I know that the CDA misdiagnosed a BUNCH of copper tube failures as hydraulic errosion corrosion, only to go back and find that the majority were FLUX corrosion related.

Or at least that is what I've been told...

Lack of reaming doesn't help much tho...

Ream, or get fired. (AHI company policy)

ME

Scott Denny

Hit a nerve!

While reading Hot Rod's comments on Indirect ∆T, "hot, hot water, say 180, and high flow rates really degrades copper quickly. Throw in some high TDS, or less than perfect ph boiler water and it gets worse", I had to cringe. Having seen the ravages caused in copper return lines and sent samples out to the CDA (and receiving, in return, a tutorial on the subject), I can vouch for the accuracy of Hot Rod's statement. The phenomenon he describes, corrosion-erosion, is a serious threat to copper tube. I would add turbulence to his list. Short radious 90º's and the absence of reamed tube ends are among the enhansers of this curse. Oh, if I'd known 25 years ago what I know now.

hr

The CDA is a treasure trove

of info. Anyone that work with copper should take advantage of their materials, many are free. Great pictures and case studies on all types of copper issues. Excellent phone support also.

www.copper.org

hot rod

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hr

Speaking of ream jobs

I have kept various copper fittings that have pin holed. Check out how the un-reamed tube caused the erosion on this ell from a DHW system. A nice layer of build up protected the pipe and fitting but the tumbling effect of the ridge caused the erosion point. In less than 3 years time!

hot rod

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Scott Denny

Speaking of ream jobs

I forgot to add non water soluable paste as one of the culprits.

jackchips_2

In your

research, have you also tracked the pressure, Hot rod?

As we know, pressure, which causes extreme velocity in piping, is also a huge problem in domestic water. It's something that is too commonly overlooked in the plumbing field.

Jack

hr

FPS should not be ignored

4 feet per second is the number commonly used in hydronic sizing. Domestic water pushes that to 8 FPS.

I've seen some huge FPS numbers used in copper fire protection system designs.

hot rod

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EBEBRATT-Ed

Had a job at my bosses house where the cold domestic water pinholed. All the hot water was fine. I have been told this is a classic case of to much flux or the wrong flux as the hw will wash the flux away and the cold water will not.


ED

mp1969

Pex

Sounds like a great case for using pex piping within it's design parameters (temp and sizing limits)I find the response to the pex threat by the copper mfgs.very weak.

The cut away with the flow restriction high lighted does not address the proper sizing and temperature restraints used by competant contractors.

It seems like the move to type "M" copper from "L" was the beginning of copper's major problems. That and the fact that it is so price sensitive has made it my second choice at best. How can one beat the 25 year warranty of Wirsbo (Uponor) and it's great support staff.

Even with the Pro_press fittings I will design systems around pex anytime over copper. The expansion and hanging concerns are easy to overcome and if you keep temps within it's design range I am sold on pex.

No flux problems, easy to create gradual turns and a proven track record.Why are we even discussing copper?


Copper once was king but now we have alternatives that out perform and do so more cost effectively!!

Been a nice ride but it's time to upgrade to copper substitutes.

MP1969

Make Peace Your Passion!