Vapor System Saved!

Steamhead (in transit)

Just had to listen to the right Dead Man. The following information is from "House Heating by Steam and Water", by Charles B. Thompson, published in 1907.

This system was known in some areas as the "French" or "German" system because of its popularity in those countries. However, its design was patented by an engineer named Frederic Tudor sometime prior to 1901, as an effort to improve on the two-pipe air-vent system. This pre-dates Professor Mapes' 1903 invention of the thermostatic steam trap. By the time Mr. Thompson's book came out, Mr. Tudor had become a Dead Man.

This system had a couple variations. In the one shown here, the loop seals acted as safety blowoffs- there was no vent on the dry return, just an open pipe. In another version, there was a separating tank at the end of the dry return in which some condensate collected, with the air again leaving thru an open pipe. A "safety pipe" also entered the tank and its end was submerged in the condensate. The other end of this safety pipe was connected to the boiler steam chest, and if the pressure got too high, the steam blew off thru the condensate and out the open pipe. These arrangements did away with mechanical safety valves which sometimes malfunctioned.

Each radiator had an orificing shutoff valve and an open return elbow. If the pressure was kept low enough, steam did not get into the dry return. It was what we now know as Orifice Vapor. I suspect that Mr. Tudor's patents were one reason that Orifice Vapor systems didn't really appear in great number in America until the 1920s.

I propose that we call systems using Mr. Tudor's designs "Tudor Systems". This wouldn't necessarily apply to all Orifice systems, just the ones piped the way he designed.

Since we originally posted this thread, we found another example of the Tudor system in a 1902 house in the Hamilton neighborhood of Baltimore, which was originally an independent town before it was annexed. We wondered if the system was original to the house- now I'm sure it is. This makes four Tudors we know of in Baltimore.

Dan, watch your e-mail. When I get some time I'll scan this info for the Library.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Vapor System Saved!

What we have here is a boiler installed by someone who "wasted no time reading the instructions" as my partner Steamhead said to our customer. It is a 2-pipe counterflow vapor system. No main air-vents anywhere, most of the radiators had vents installed where the air-bleed valve would go. The boiler spent most of its time bouncing off the pressuretrol setting of 3+ psi...

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Steamhead (in transit)

And here is what we did..

To save the system: Four Hoffman #75s were added to the dry return just before it drips into the wet return. Gortons were not considered here because the heat from the system might close them prematurely. A vaporstat was added on a brass pigtail along with a 0-30"H20 pressure gauge. The otherwise wretched PA404 was also re-installed on a brass pigtail as back-up...

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Steamhead (in transit)

At The Ends of the Mains...

We installed the beloved Gorton#2s. That's a loop seal between the end of main and the dry return. The smallest one was 18", which determines our pressure limits. The system's sweet spot seems to be about 5"H20. Poor photo, I'm afraid.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Steam was blowing by...

Some of the smaller radiators and getting into the dry return, so we took the old valves apart and choked 'em down to balance out the system...Oh, and we removed the radiator vents and plugged the holes...We think the system will work better now.

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Steamhead (in transit)

More info

This is one of three similar Orifice Vapor systems I've seen in Baltimore. It's located in the Roland Park neighborhood- the other two are in Mayfield and Mount Washington. The original house plans have a date of 1915, so this is one of the earliest Orifice systems I've seen.

All the steam main piping is run counterflow, and appears to be smaller than usual for Vapor. In such a system, proper pitch is key- we found that the weak steam distribution in one of the mains was caused by insufficient pitch, preventing condensate from flowing against the steam. We raised that part of the main by about 1-1/4-inch and that freed up the condensate, and the steam then flowed normally.

As seen in Gordo's photos, the radiator valves consist of an outer body and a plug-shaped stem assembly with a rotating barrel inside. The alignment between the body and the stem assembly determines the orifice opening. The rotating barrel is operated by the handle to regulate or close the valve.

The only reason we can figure for the presence of the loop seals is that they would blow out and bang if the pressure got too high (as if someone left the ashpit door open on the old coal boiler) to alert the residents.

We have no idea who designed and made this system. There are no names on any of its components. Anyone out there seen anything similar?

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David Sutton_6

Hi Frank

Nice recovery, another one saved! My old Co. has hired me to come in and redo a vapor vacum system, looking forward to the project.......

David

EBEBRATT-Ed

Nice job guys. A system like that needs someone that knows what they are doing.

Is that boiler a UTICA/DUNKIRK?? Is the 2" piping big enough(I'm sure you already checked)

I just love the galvy unions. I guess the depot ran out of black


ED.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's a Kreibel

with yet another version of the "baffler" return ells. More pics please!

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Steamhead (in transit)

It's a Utica J-400

I downloaded the diagram and just shook my head. Doesn't surprise me that it's piped wrong, since the knucklehead "installers" didn't even put a vent on the dry return. It needs a 4-inch riser (one will do) and 4-inch header, and drips for the counterflow steam mains. But all the rads heat now.

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David Sutton_6

These are the only one left

Besides the old boiler, the boiler was a 76 ser.WM i was the helper on the install in 89, even then i knew the installer was not piping it rigt but i was the new guy!and he brushed me off. now i get to go back and do it right, my old company i worked for Krupa oil has hired me to come in and install the new one with Russ! remember him? he was my helper while i was at Krupa oil and now he has my old job!

Man that makes me proud!!!


David

PS tell me what you want to see and i will get you more photos

EBEBRATT-Ed

Frank,

I know your pain. The system works and you can't fix everything at once. I installed one of those in a church about a year ago. Maybe not the best boiler but they wanted it cheap. I think it had 4 modules or maybe 5 arn't they 400,000 each module?? Anyhow we followed the instructions and used 2 4 inch risers and a 4 inch header that was called for and it worked good once we skimmed it.


ED

Steamhead (in transit)

Restoring Kriebel Valves

If you need to restore the Kriebel radiator valves, my advice would be to get the rebuild kit from Tunstall. Talk to Woody Tunstall.

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