causes of leaking boiler?

Al Gregory

What kind of boiler is it? I actually found a four year old Utica boiler leaking above the water line the other day. It wasnt the greatest install in the world but far from the worst. I didnt install the origional so I told them to go back to the origional installer but they wont come back because they dont buy oil from them any longer. I contacted a wholesaler that sells Utica and was told there must be something wrong with the installation because Utica boilers dont leak.

He called the factory and to his suprise Utica told him the exact spot it was leaking and they authorised a new boiler and to my suprise they also kicked in 500.00 twoards labor. I told the customer I would replace it for them and I'm just waiting for the new block to arrive.

I hope the mega steam works out and I may try them after I see a few in the field for a while. Right now Ive been installing WM's for steam and a mix of WM and Burnham for FHW. The last two steam boilers I replaced were V7's that were installed in 1998. Both got a WM. Neither wanted another Burnham. Both were tight good working systems until they started leaking. It's actually getting hard to even sell a Burnham boiler in this area now. I wasnt going to reply but my name was mentioned in this thread so I thought it was appropiate to do so

rick_46

causes of leaking boiler?

My 3 yo boiler(used 2200 gal of oil since new) has started leaking. If you fill the boiler to it's top it begins to leak. When the water is lowered to its' usual level the leak stops. It never ran without water because of the low water cutoff. It is a one pipe steam radiator system. I'm waiting for the manufacturer rep to come and inspect it but in the meantime, does anyone know of possible causes of this leak near or at the top of the boiler?

marc friedman

perhaps ...

it's no good ..??

brucewo1b

Copy of post by Glenn Stanton

The following is a copy of a post I placed on OilTechTalk to an individual that has had more than of his share of internal corrosion issues where he is located in the South
This may or maynot apply tpo you but it sure is worth reading remember too much fresh make up water is not good for any Cast Iron Boiler

Shore area of Massachusetts.

Regarding all of the exchanges that we have had over the past couple of years, I would like to clarify the results. As discussed in the past, you have had more than your share of V7 and V8 steam leakers due to internal corrosion. As also discussed, we have paid VERY close attention to this occuring out in the field and have taken several steps to find out why. We have taken water samples from several of the jobsites where this has occured as well as a real close look at the possible contributory things that the system itself can cause. I have discussed most of these things here and at other sites.

As discussed in previous posts, yes things like uninsulated mains, lack of venting and unattended excessive water makeup can kill steam boilers rather quickly regardless of the brand. One of the primary reasons you folks in your part of Mass. see this happening more often also has to due with the fact that Burnham Steam boilers were installed with greater frequency than other areas so just by percentages you will be seeing more failures. As I stated in all of the previous posts, we have not been resting on our laurels waiting for this problem to go away. We have been exploring the whys of this by sending engineers to your area and to a handful of other areas where this happened with greater frequency than anywhere else. We also brought several of these boilers back and sent them out to independent laboratories for analysis (a very expensive procedure I must add). Most of the people that monitor these sites can support me in saying that they may not see this happening in their geographical areas.

With that in mind, we concentrated on what may be different about your geographical area than other areas where it does not happen. The one common denominator happens to be the water. It was not so much the water itself but what is in the water which ended up being higher than normal chloride levels. This is also something that we have been closely monitoring regarding stainless steel Indirect Heaters failing sooner than desired. With the indirects we began providing glass lined tanks to use where clhoride levels are high. With the steam boilers the answer is now MegaSteam.

What we did find is that in areas with higher than normal chloride levels a process was occuring within the steam dome of the boiler called "Temperature Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion". This reaction is something that begins with high chlorides in the water and is accelerated by heat or contact of the vertical and upper horizontal surfaces in the steam dome with the flue gasses. It is the contact with the flue gasses that triggers this process and once the ball gets rolling you just can't stop it. Yes it happens with other brands of steam boilers as well but possibly less often for reasons I will explain.

Now you ask, what is going to make the MegaSteam different than any other boiler out there currently being used for steam? The difference is the flue gas passageway design. This is a horizontal passageway three pass boiler where all contact with flue gasses is below the steam surfaces. There is absolutely no flue gas contact with the cast iron surfaces that have steam on the other side. If you take away the HEAT you no longer have "Heat Induced Chloride Activated Graphitic Corrosion".

You also ask why this is not happening to some of the older boilers that have been out there for years and years as well as other brands of similar vertical pinned flue design. As far as the newer ones go, they are also susceptible but due to variances in exposed surfaces, pin location and iron thickness it just takes longer. They are all prone due to flue gasses being on the other side of the section walls and dome. As far as the older boilers are concerned, the wall thicknesses were much greater and the exchange of flue gas temperature was not as pronouced due to wider passageways and ribbed surfaces instead of pinned surfaces. In otherwords they just were not as darn efficient. Most of the flue gas temperature was simply going up the chimney.

We also took a close look at the design of some of the much, much older boilers that have been out there operating on steam for say 50 to 100 years. Many of these had a common denominator as well. That common denominator is the rear outlet for flue gasses below the water level. They were of either 2-pass or 3-pass design, not very efficient due to the area of the passageways, but none the less below the water line. With all of this in mind we are now glad to introduce the MegaSteam boiler. It is the most efficient steam boiler out there and with protection from the Chloride Activated Corrosion by design....three pass flue gas flow. The testing we have done with this has shown no signs whatsoever of the trigger that starts the chloride corrosion process rolling......heat. That's why we are also the first company to step up to the plate with a warranty that covers internal corrosion.

Keep in mind that even with the MegaSteam system issues such as uninsulated mains, lack of venting and unmonitored excessive water makeup still have to be paid attention to. We address this in the I&O manual and even go as far as to show a water meter installed on the makeup water line in the I&O drawings. Sorry for the longer than lengthy post and explanation, but I thought you were entitled to it. Thanks for your continued support Heaterman and others.

The distributors now have their pricing and related information and several have orders in already. These are in production and some may begin to roll ot as early as this week. They will all be shipped out Knocked Down with an assembled block, cartoned jacket and all other related items all enclosed on the same pallet. All I ask is to be patient as the reaction to this boiler being introduced has been outstanding. You will see them very shortly. For now they will all be equipped with the Beckett AFG with other burner options to follow. Thanks again!

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

michael malsbury

uninsulated mains?

Why would uninsulated mains cause premature boiler failure? Adding insulation reduces the EDR of the system, but that's it. The boiler might fire longer with uninsulated mains, but it wouldn't run abnormally. I thought insulating the mains was strictly for efficiency.

Unknown

Michael

Uninsulated mains, particularly longer and bigger ones, running through a relatively cool space will condense the steam all the while the system is ramping up. Excessive amounts of condensate along with unvented CO2 that is in the mains due to ineffective or missing main vents will produce Carbonic Acid thus lowering the ph of the boiler water.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

rick_46

causes of leaking boiler

I forgot to add in my original post that I do not have an automatic water feed so I know that new or excessive water was not added to the boiler and that the leak is very recent. So does anyone have any ideas on what could cause the boiler to leak after only 3 years? I also agree with the other post questioning how uninsulated pipes would contribute to such a premature failure of the boiler.

rick_46

Glenn, OK, I just read your reasons to insulate the pipes. My pipes are insulated and not much make-up water was added in the past three years.

Unknown

Chloride Levels

Have you had the quality of your incoming and boiler water checked? Of particular concern would be the PH levels and Chloride levels.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

michael malsbury

Thanks for your response

rick_46

> Have you had the quality of your incoming and

> boiler water checked? Of particular concern would

> be the PH levels and Chloride levels.

>

> Glenn

> Stanton

>

> Manager of Training

>

> Burnham

> Hydronics

>

> U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.



I have well water. Can I do the test myself or should I hire a water testing company?

Unknown

Al

Actually I didn't post that thread. It was copied from a post from several months ago and reposted by Bruce. What you don't see necessarily is that pretty much all of the boiler manufacturers have difficulties with steam boilers depending on how many they sell and where they happen to sell them. I've been around this business since 1972 and have been involved with just about every brand. The reason you are seeing more of our product has to do simply with numbers. The more boilers that are sold and installed, the higher the frequency. As you found out with the Utica, internal corrosion is no stranger to any manufacturer. We have all had to deal with it. What's different is that we have looked heavily as to why and have done something about it. The more of some other brand you install, the higher the failure rates will be with those as well.


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Christian Egli_2

Pulled into quarters

Perhaps also there is an expansion problem with your near boiler piping. If not designed right, stresses will concentrate on the boiler block and possibly force open a leak between the sections. At worse it will crack.

Pulling the boiler by the pipes is like dragging your spouse by the hair, it's definitely not good for a warm long term relationship.

rick_46

Christian, thanks for your thoughtful reply. My boiler appears to have 3 sections going from front to back. It appears that only the front section is connected to pipes(2); one pipe allows steam to exit and the other pipe allows water to enter.Although the 3 sections are bolted together, only the front section is connected to any pipes.I don't see how the movement of those 2 pipes could affect the joints between the sections. In theory, movement of the 2 pipes could stress the front section, but the near boiler pipes are soldered copper and I would think that they would give before the boiler. What do you think?

Unknown

Rick

This last post adds another possible reason for the failure of your steam boiler. The use of copper piping for steam connections can cause a galvanic reaction to occur whereby the iron in the sections can become eroded away. See attached notice from one of our Installation Manuals.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

rick_46

Glenn, why doesn't Burnham explicitly prohibit copper useage as they do soft water?

Unknown

Rick

It probably has to do with variables that would exist from one job to another. With the copper it has to do with conditions that may or may not exist that can trigger the galvanic reaction. I don't profess to being a Metallurgist nor a Chemist so I will not attempt to describe what those conditions may exactly be.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

rick_46

Glenn, I think that people who install boilers don't know what those conditions are either. If there's a chance that the joining of copper pipes to steel/iron will trigger a galvanic reaction resulting in the premature failure of the boiler, don't you think that Burnham should clearly prohibit it as they do soft water? My plumber used copper. Perhaps if the instructions clearly prohibited it, my boiler would not be leaking today. Do you know whether any boiler manufacturers prohibit copper as they do soft water?

Al Gregory

There are actually more WM 68 boilers around here than anything else and they dont seem to last more than 20 years before the O rings dry up. I would say peerless is second, they last till replaced for being loud sooty and a pain and then Burnham.

Al Gregory

actually most of the failures Im seeing are black pipe not copper. Its wierd though because some of the nasty looking jobs are still working and some of the nicely done ones leak.