How do I choose the best value vs. efficient nat gas boiler?

Perry_2

You are correct that the concept of condensing boilers is not new. Also correct that many of them did fail - but that some did not.

Add Modulating to the mix and you add another level of complexity from several standpoints (controls, burner design, how it affects the HX, etc).

Thus, I stand on my statement - unless you can show me a track record of modulating condensing boilers.

Perry

wjzj

Choosing best value for High Efficiency Natural Gas Boiler

I am about to add 900 square feet to my 3000 square foot home. Renovating kitchen and 2 bathrooms adding a mudroom. I am trying to make a choice on a high efficiency natural gas boiler for A. existing baseboard forced hot water, B. New radiant heat for tile floors in the new areas C. Indirect Domestic Hot Water storage tank.

I have looked at Buderus, Viessmann, and have heard about Munchkin. My builder wants me to use Burnham with separate pumps for 6 zones. I don't think Burnham and all those pumps are the most efficient way to go. At the same time there must be a reasonable return on investment. Maybe 3-6 years?

Any recommendations?
WJZJ

Perry_2

Best value has many defiintions...

Are you looking for the cheapest install?

Are you looking for something that will likely last for a long time - such that the overall long term cost of ownership is lowest?

What is the appropriate payback period?

What is the expected life of the boiler & cost of replacement?

How much and how difficult is routine maintenance?


I am a homeowner who faced the same questions this year.

In the end I chose the Viessmann Vitodens 200. More money up front. But I expect that it will be a long term durable boiler and that annual maintenance will be quick and easy. Overall I expect the long term cost of ownership to outperform others on the market.

Please note that no one can really say how long the modern mod/con boilers will last because no one has had them in service for 10 or more years. They are all relatively new. I consider Aluminium block boilers to be experimentall and they will likely require routine water chemistry testing and control over their life (however long it might be). But, they are cheap to build.

Please consider that the cost of changing a boiler has a very high labor price (often on par with or exceeding the cost of the boiler). If you do not get a long term reliable boiler now - you could easily be out a very substaintial $,$$$$ down the road.

I think the Vitodens has the best and most durable designed heat exchanger and an extreemly good burner design that also should be durable.

From an engineering standpoint (and I am also a engineer): the Vitodens is way beyond many other boilers in several areas.

So, that's my viewpoint.

But it all gets down to what you consider to be of value to you now. Initial cost - or long term expected cost.

Perry

Robert O'Brien

If

you think about the total cost of a 900 sq/ft addition. The incremental cost of a better boiler is really inconsequential.What is is on a % basis, 3 % of project cost?Maybe less?

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Cunner_2

Broad

When you say " Burnham " boiler that's kind of broad, What Fuel? I know Burnham makes boilers from 83% to 95% efficient, so I guess it depends on which model and what type of sytem and heat emmitters.

wjzj

It was a high efficiency, natural gas. That's all they told me.

S Ebels

If that's all the explanation you got.......

I'd be looking for a different contractor. Sounds pretty old school to me.

Joe Brix

Burnham

has some new high efficency gas boilers that just came out that your contractor has probably never heard of. Modulating/condensing boilers offer the highest efficency rating. See what's being offered at the price point your looing for.

Brad White_158

Another approach

No where was it said anything about the condition, age or size of the existing boiler.

I have seen on many occassions times when the existing boiler was over-sized and would welcome the additional load. One house had a 225 MBH boiler and a heat loss of about 100 MBH to start, 150 when complete with the addition.

Not great, but far better than it would have been, because the contractor wanted to add another boiler "just because". If you do not measure you do not know.

A calculated heat loss of the entire finished house and addition would be in order as the first place to start. You may be surprised and pleasantly, especially if you had the house insulated since the current boiler was installed.

This of course has to be weighed against the age and anticipated useful life of the existing boiler. If it is 25-30 years, start shopping.

If it is 5-10 years old and has capacity, you could pipe up the addition as you want to, radiant with manifolds, anything you want. Hook that up to the existing boiler (re-work the near-boiler piping) and make a go of it. When the time comes for an overall replacement, you will be ready.

Just a thought.

Say that after the calculation exercise, re-using the existing boiler does not pan out. You now have a sound basis (the only sound basis) for selecting the new boiler.

After that, read and learn. There are lots of opinions on this site. Viessmann, Buderus and Burnham are all excellent companies with a wide range of products. The former two have excellent reputations in the condensing market. The latter has been an American mainstay for years and years, in the conventional cast iron market and recently has come to the condensing table. All have excellent customer support and that is the part you do not want to ignore. Which is best supported in your area?

Not to take anything away from the others, but I chose Viessman for the reasons Perry stated. But properly applied, each has their merits. One will be the right one for you, the process of determining that requires more information and knowing the abilities and thinking of your installer.

Your cost of fuel, ratio of radiation to heat loss, all go toward the ultimate decision.

Brad

Boilerpro_5

Only 10 years?...

Condensing boilers have been around alot longer than that, I've been told. Many of the current designs on the US market are essentially older European boilers with track records of 15 years or more. Condensing boilers have been available since the 1950's in the US in limted markets, and more broadly available since the late 1970's. Some have proven to be poor designs and many (most) suffered from poor installs that lead to serious reliability issues. I help maintain a set of 4 Hydrotherm pulse 300,000 input boilers that are now over 20 years old, have seen some abuse, but have had needed few repairs and are showing no signs of giving up. The life expectancy, as a group, of "new" condensing boilers is not as unknown as many make it to be. Good designs, properly installed have proven to be quite long lived and reliable, with every apparance of lasting as or nearly aslong as typical cast iron boiler.

Boilerpro

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