Warranty. Are we being taken for a ride?

Paul Readon

I used to think this way too.

Yes we can bring them back! And for that matter my instruction manuals never mentioned cleaning out the heat ex. I guess I'm just used to cast iron and I wasent aware, I am now, about how long these units last, Is this why my instuction man. that I just pulled out from under a stack of old invoices, says only ONE year? I just went to the Munchkin website and the posted warrantey is different, does this mean retroactivly as well? And, yes it is part of a system, but the last time I looked the copper I put in 20 years ago didn't need to be cleaned out! As far as the dealer It is obviously to the manufacturers benifit that we deal with them, which adds to the cost. I think I'm going to start refering my customers to the reps and call the factory direct, why me?

Paul Readon

Radio shack

And sears, these warranties seem to, based upon personal experience seem to be expensive and run out about the time the vacume clearen of fridge break. I deal with an inner city cusomer base, refered by the steep discount offered by the local gas utility, for the high efficency units, they can'not afford any insurance plan. With CI offering 10 20 year warranties, whats up with these munchkins? 1 or three years? What is the actual time period, and somebody explain to me about purchasing a insurance policy, I mean it's like my kids insurance, it costs 3 times as much as the car does? Is this a fair comparison? To buy an already pricy boiler and then tack on a short term policy timed to be non-renewable based upon life expectancy?
Where is the 90% saving then? If I can install a ci unit cost under a grand, pay for 3 years of gas usage with the savings difference, does anyone have any real numbers regarding the savings other than the manufacturers? It's like buying a new car for the gas savings, why pay 20 grand when my clunker is payed for, how much driving will I get using the clunker for 20, 000.00? I don't think I have ever in my life spent that much for gas, so in whos pockets does it go, I think I am paying for the (escalade)suv's that just cut me off by buying a fuel efficent car. Next munchkin goes back, I'm puttin it on my shoulder, putting it on the supply house dock and saying fix it! Jeepers the more I think about this, the more it seems like i'm getting a run around. Sorry if I offended anyone, but plumbing has given me a start in life that I never got in highschool. And I have close ties with my customers, I can't always do a Frank Bleau type of thing that I read about in P&M although I try. Thanks Perry But most of my low income customers can't afford an insurance policy and most of the others don't worry about insurance because they are viewed as an add -on and it's not a big deal to them, they can afoord some bumbs in the road.

WaterHeaterGuy

The other possibility is that your concentric vent kit could facing the predominant direction of winds. I had a guy in the upper portion of WI whos concentric vent kit faced NW and he lived right on Lake Superior.

Another possibility could be the location of your concentric kit in general. Are we located on an inside corner of the home? How high off the ground are we? The moisture content of a Munchkin/Pinacle defies normal furnace rules for venting, as the humidity % is much higher. Sit and watch your exhaust for a bit... see how the flue gases rise and fall outside. If they are consistantly hanging around the termination, perhaps we have a problem with recirculation of the flue gasses. (pulling exhaust back into our intake)

IF you are having problems with air moving backwards through the unit, look for my tell tale signs posted above. Corrosion to the gas pipe inside the cabinet compared to outside. A light grey dusting on the gas valve or air venturi. Or just put your hand in front of the air venturi and feel for the heat/moisture comming back inside the cabinet.

I cannot recall a job where I was changing blowers like you've described without either of these scenerios present. (Outside the initial blower problems we all faced before the warranty was extended)

Chris_82

Picture size

My most sincere apologies, but I can't find the edit button anywhere. I travel quite a bit and any advice is most appreciated.

Chris_82

End run?

Hi, Ken,
We didn’t, our fist stop was to hire a local company to help with a cantankerous customer, and they were promptly rebuked at the gate. I am now no longer working in the field, I travel quite a bit, however I installed the customers original unit when they first came out, as part of a large local marketing campaign to save energy which everyone was instantly enamored with. So I would imagine this was one of the first units.

I spoke with the supply house, with the fan unit in hand, as I have been through this fan jamming problem in the past. All you have to do is take off the cover and turn the motor cooling fan to see if it is jammed. And was informed I would need the original sales slip for any warranty replacements. Having been through this many times in the past, I asked them to contact the local rep., which they said they would. "Could I please have your phone number and we will get back to you, when we have time." "I, was kind of thinking we could do this now?" "No."

I called the local rep. at Emerson Swan and once again... I like these people very much...by the way, but we stumbled slightly when I refused to have a discussion regarding which company I now represent, "what does that matter, I asked?”I am a plumber, not the homeowner!" If that is your concern, never less, can I have your number and I'll get back to you, after I speak with the factory.

4 hours at this point, the warranty card I presented clearly states 1 year. And I "retain" it in my possession, if you catch the innuendo; I hope it doesn’t come to this.

The warranty department at HTP were more than helpful, however if they recommend cleaning their equipment, perhaps the marketing department could be a little more up-front about this.

The customer is "difficult" never less he is our customer and I intend to honor and respect his wish's, I work for him, saving his money and time is a duty I gladly take on, not an opportunity to pass the buck with add-ons, in deference to F.B.. From his perspective he has a number of concerns about warranties and service that need to be addressed. Additionally from his perspective this shouldn’t be a money maker for any contractor that comes along, nor should I be placed in the middle, nor should he have to be at home for a "factory" inspection when clearly he has a shredded pile of dust sitting there. This is what generated the warranty at large question, which started this thread.

You mention "the fan problem" I mention how many are out there waiting to fail, that haven't failed yet? How many of us without service contracts will have to go thru this process? Has a recall been thought about? Being in the middle, why do I have to call the rep? For any product?

I was forced to take the customers perspective, I can't even purchase a new unit and slip it in, as I have given my word to the customer, who has national influence. I make an appointment with the security company to gain entrance and have signed multiple non-disclosure contracts as to what I see and hear. This is not uncommon on long Island or Newport, and a host of other community’s country wide. But it is an irrelevant issue as to this discussion, don't even try to deflect what is my concern as far as my posted question which again is being in the middle why do we pay and run around when the factory has clearly and multiply made it clear that they are not responsible for labor? This is literally a million dollar question as we move into the housing market. Does this help you understand? I give a lot of instructions during the course of a day and my tone is frequently interpreted as inflammatory, this is not my intention, so accept my apologies in advance if any tone leaks out. However the analogy regarding automobiles and appliances is very much appropriate to this discussion. Sears has a nationwide 800 number to call whilst products are in warranty. Call, someone shows up at the home and the product is fixed. They have a pricing structure, admittedly and presently in flux nonetheless, that is the procedure. Our industry has a built in system that is inherently different with the factory and representative network entrenched with the factory warranty department controlling the process. They have a vested and economic hierarchy that favors the status quo. What would be the economic impact to a company that either faces this challenge of in home repair versus keeping an established system that inherently the consumer is funding? It is not in the millions, it is in the Billions.

I have been in contact with the wonderful people at HTP and I believe they will be replacing the unit at no cost to the customer, it is heartfelt and reassuring that there are so many excellent and dedicated individuals that stand behind an energy saving appliance with an outstanding track record. I have a Munchkin in my home by the way, I took the time and cost to convert from oil to gas, (both from the local utility and a change over to propane if necessary). We are on the fringe of rural versus boondocks and subject to frequent power outages. How's that for "tongue-in-cheek, brand optimism."

Chris_82

Clean out procedure

Thanks Dan that is most helpful. I travel and my apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I believe HTP is assisting and every plumber can rest easy if the way they have treated me is an example of their commitment. We shall see. It might be helpful in the future regarding cleaning procedures if this information is made in advance. We wouldn't want home owners to have to take apart the heat exchanger would we? Sulfur may be a problem in some areas, but most N gas decomposes, (combusts) into water and (CO +) CO2, (CO rapidly increases as the amount of oxygen decreases, perhaps I should talk to the factory about this), hence the reason they are called condensing. More probably the waxy substance (paraffin by products which are hydrocarbon based) that infrequently build up are a result of low air volume and this condition is rare and also requires very rapid and large delta t temperatures, not something most of us need ever worry about especially a Munchkin owner. Negative air can be a large problem in some homes, especially super insulated ones with blocked air to air units, generally the amount of air pressure for this effect makes it difficult to open an outward swinging door, but as you know these sealed combustion units generally don't suffer this problem, perhaps you should address this concern to the factory and it could be included in future and past purchasers installation manuals?

WaterHeaterGuy

something interesting...

> More probably the waxy substance

> (paraffin by products which are hydrocarbon

> based) that infrequently build up are a result of

> low air volume and this condition is rare and

> also requires very rapid and large delta t

> temperatures, not something most of us need ever

> worry about especially a Munchkin owner.




Actually, 2000ºF combustion temperature falling down to 120ºF exhaust temperature is a pretty wide delta. This is the side of the exchanger that we're talking about.

A byproduct of Paraffin you say? Hmmm ... the most interesting part of this is that recently we has some European folks out to see us and we were talking about this very subject. They believed a possible explaination to the infrequency and the overall randomness could be from a unit not expelling it's condensate in a timely fashion... thus impeding airflow through the unit.

Chris_82

Deposits

One item, after reading this whole post concerns me and that is the deposit policy of many of the major boiler manufacturers especially HTP. Is everyone aware of the increasing tendency to bump up the price for a warranty replacements? If your local supply house doesn’t sell, you are required to find one that does, and they will be looking for cash. This is so that the "factory" can investigate your claim about their defective equipment. This is so that the supply house dosen't get stuck by the factory. Our limit was reduced by $6,000.00 placed on our account without our knowledge after we were told the factory was going to replace the defective units. It took roughly 4 months to clear this. If you have a warranty issue, how many of you are ready to do the extra time running back and forth only to be told you need to purchase all and any warranty parts and we will get back to you! The assumption is that the customer is without service and this adds to the pressure to comply with an abusive business practice. What are you going to do I was told: “put in a new boiler at your expense, or pay for the part?” I was told in a heated discussion with Mr. Dave Martin of HTP, last month, that he "will not be on the short end of the stick, if you plumbers don't return our equipment." I find this a little scary. Something to keep in mind with product returns, they are anything but fast. And the attitude is that the plumbers are wrong? Wheras we have no central voice or power over this situation, this leaves them free to continue to say our product is perfect and it was a installation problem, to all of those sucked in by the marketing hype. Additionally if the factory says it was "installation" problems you will be left with the bill long after you have billed your customer, they and the local reps are counting on this policy to protect their interests, not ours or the consumers. And clearly there may be about 4,000-6,000 early units that haven’t failed yet, I am unable at this time to get accurate answers because no one is talking; all I get is how wonderful the new models are?

T Towne

Key word here. Principals.......Basic natural laws effect everything in the world in which we live in. If there are companies/individuals that go against these principals they will ultimately face the concequences (bad or good) of the natural laws of right and wrong. Simply ask yourself the following question. Do I wish to be associated with the company/individual employing bad behavior? The effects of HTP or others "bad business" practices are already taking effect in the life of this thread. Again, if they refuse to see these poor prctices as problems they eventually meet the bad concequences in a very natural and predictable way. It is my opinion, especially now with the power of the internet, sometimes staying in business is actually harder than geting into it!

Tom

Chris_82

Principles

Wow you said a mouthful. However if you want to see a really long response from me it's about how the consumer has the least amount of power in our society but the widely held public perception is that as consumers we have the most amount of power. This is exploited and we are left holding the bag so to speak. Defective equipment…takes a long time…until someone gets hurt or someone who has suffered great "damages," in the case of the entran tubing episode, gets financially hurt enough to hire better lawyers that we can afford. As a rule most of us have to work for a living and the letters never get written to the agencies or our elected officials where they can do some good. This too has not been lost on the manufacturers, however there are a few of us that can afford to write and write and write, it may take years but we don’t quit and we are not going to quit, I hope we all benefit sooner than later but I could use some help. Are you aware of the recent trend to hold large deposits for defective equipment? Any one remember the campanelli housing project in MA. Some well meaning manufacturer sold radiant heating aka Fred Flintstone with defective, or perhaps the concrete was defective at any rate the manufacturer indicated at first everything was installed improperly...any ways the tubing leaked O2 got to the boilers and mold made its way into the walls. 400-600 homes had major problems, but a few select individuals walked away. ALL and I mean ALL of us...the plumbers... took the heat, not much different than today.

T Towne

Those that semingly "walked away" will face sometimes unseen concequences (perhaps unseen by everyone including themselves). Perhaps Marital, financial, health....there are all sorts of festering issues that are in process. It may not always appear that way on the surface or without very close analisis but in the end, the bad guy ALWAYS finishes last. It is simply Law of nature!

Rich W

please see \"Munchkin moan on start up\"

This is the third I have seen. I do service- not install. I have seen many bad installs that do not come close to the manuals recommendations. Will installing the venting cause this? Exhaust on the west and intake on the east side of the house. A bit more than the 36" separation the book calls for...34 feet of 3/8" tube going up-hill from the twisted condensate drain...gee, it's only half an inch higher than the outlet of the drain at the end of the tube. HUH? Why should it work. Does this CRAPPY "work" cause this? I don't know. Sure makes ALL of us look bad, though. Does HTP require training before installing their equip.?
Maybe they should if they don't.

Rich W

please see \"Munchkin moan on start up\"

This is the third I have seen. I do service- not install. I have seen many bad installs that do not come close to the manuals recommendations. Will installing the venting cause this? Exhaust on the west and intake on the east side of the house. A bit more than the 36" separation the book calls for...34 feet of 3/8" tube going up-hill from the twisted condensate drain...gee, it's only half an inch higher than the outlet of the drain at the end of the tube. HUH? Why should it work. Does this CRAPPY "work" cause this? I don't know. Sure makes ALL of us look bad, though. Does HTP require training before installing their equip.?
Maybe they should if they don't.

Rich W

please see \"Munchkin moan on start up\"

This is the third I have seen. I do service- not install. I have seen many bad installs that do not come close to the manuals recommendations. Will installing the venting cause this? Exhaust on the west and intake on the east side of the house. Ten times more than the 36" separation the book calls for...34 feet of 3/8" tube going up-hill from the twisted condensate drain...gee, it's only half an inch higher than the outlet of the drain at the end of the tube. HUH? Why should it work. Does this CRAPPY "work" cause this? I don't know. Sure makes ALL of us look bad, though. Does HTP require training before installing their equip.?
Maybe they should if they don't.

PS- This blower is OK for the moment...

Chris_82

This certianly has a bad tast just looking at it. Is this 3" or 4" venting? If it is 3" they certianly have exceeded the manuals recomondation. And the condensate, certianly is wrong to think water will go up hill...But one of the first things I see is bar codes on the pipe...means home dump to me...considering only a minority of supply houses place those stickers on individual fittings. Which means homeowner, did you check to see if a permit was pulled?

Unknown

Dave

Rich W

Hi Chris

Yes, it was inspected- guess they didn't look in the install manual either. It was installed two years ago. Many service calls under warranty(I should hope so)and a few not covered. How many parts do the manufacturers replace because of poor installs? Cust. finally got sick of dealing with the installer and called us. They are happy it's working correctly- also happy with Munchkin now that it's working. They wanted us to rip it out when we arrived. They now understand that you get what you pay for.

Steve_35

Consumer power

I agree and disagree with you, Chris.

I had a problem with a HTP SuperStor water heater. The stainless well they provide leaked a little less than 2 years after we installed it in a client's home. A pin hole developed in the flat part of the end. I went as far up the food chain as I could get with HTP and they would not even send me a replacement well. I stood behind my client and replaced that well on our dime.

Here's the other side of the coin. We installed a GB-142. The manifold developed a leak at a sweat joint. Buderus shipped us another manifold. The old manifold out before we noticed the new manifold was bent enough so it wouldn't work. We repaired the old manifold and sent the replacement back to Buderus. I let Buderus know of the issue. I don't want to go into details here, but I will say Buderus took care of us 110%.

Now, I won't be purchasing another HTP product, but I will tell my story to anyone who asks. Just like I will tell my experience with Buderus to anyone who asks.

Myself, I think that stainless well is going to cost HTP plenty over the next couple of years while Buderus has generated plenty of goodwill and hopefully additional sales.

Chris_82

Rich

One of the other items that frequently get glossed over is the fact that in our area, with Stadler-Verga or whatever, sorry, down the street… the vast majority of plumbers that are installing the mod/cons are the more established and reputable companies and individuals. This front line mentality generally requires a time and equipment investment, longer install times, and more co-ordination between electrical, rep and local wholesaler. In other words the majority of mod/cons and to a lesser extent setback controls, radiant heat, etc are being installed by more competent individuals.
And by far their installs reflect a quality job that clearly costs more than the other guy. The local factory has taken on this group and is insulting to deal with; when every other "first" response is: it must be a poor install. I can not begin to describe the rage I feel when the “can’t make it as a plumber, so I’ll become a factory rep. boy,” shows up to a poster child installation, to a better quality than described in their manuals installation, they pull out a gas test gauge and proceed to fix what isn’t broken, and then ten hours later we take apart the broken fan and then he says I need to go the wholesaler and purchase a replacement part!