No heat upstairs...kids cold...help!

Rob_39

Well, as we were considering bleeding the valves upstairs, we came to learn those baseboards do not have them. I'm guessing when our Cape was built the upstairs was not completed until later and they didn't put the bleeder valves in.

Kris_3

no heat upstairs

We have a small Cape style house....downstairs has 2 bedrooms, kitchen, bath, family room and the upstairs has 2 bedrooms. We just realized that the upstairs is not getting any heat...we have forced hot water with baseboards heating. Only one thermostat and it is located in the family room. We have also had an increase of running water sounds through the baseboards and a smell of something in the cellar as the pipes get hot (not gas and carbon monoxide detector is fine)...are all these related to the same problem? Any ideas how to get the heat back into my kids rooms? Thanks!

Timco

You need a good purge. Top loop sounds airbound. Do you know how to do this?

Tim

Timco

It could also be a circulator, with the smell and all. do you have one or two circulators on the system? What is your boiler pressure? There will be a gauge on the boiler. A picture of the boiler and near boiler piping will help. Let's figure this out and warm the kids up!

Tim

Kris_3

No, could you explain?

Timco

Start be looking at the pressure you are currently at. If 12 or so, you are good. If 0, we would need to find out why. Find the place on the pipes that looks like a hose will attach to it. Put a hose on it and run it outside. (Not on the bottom of the boiler, but on the pipes. ) Is there a valve or lever between this and the boiler? If so, close it. (Do these things with a cold boiler) Fill the boiler to 28 psi or so, looking at the gauge. You should have a pressure reducing valve on the fill with a lever on it which will fill the system beyond what the valve is set for. As you fill, when the gauge says 28, open the hose drain valve. You will hear water and air fly out. when the pressure drops to 10 or so, close the hose bib and do this again. The idea is to force the water and air through the pipes. Set the system to 12 when done. If this does not do it, you may need a circulator.

Tim

Kris_3

Pressure is about a 2....what do you make of that?

brucewo1b

I'd say you need at least twelve

is there a valve off before or after the pressure reducing valve or is there a lift handle on top that you can lift to get it to twelve??

Mitch_6

2 psi

Sounds like you are out of water and may damage your boiler.

I would shut it down and call a pro. If your gage is off and you run the boiler dry you could damage it, if it is running dry and you add cold water to a hot boiler someone could get hurt.

Mitch

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kris_3

We have one circulator that was replaced within the past few years. The smell is not always present, usually when using hot water a while, for instance after a few showers in a row. Also, the smell is not coming from the boiler...but maybe a pipe/pipes is our guess.

Kris_3

I can physically change the pressure?

Kris_3

Out of water where? We have plenty of hot water and the rest of the house is heating normally.

Kris_3

bleeding the baseboard

I've also read I should try using the bleeder on the baseboard upstairs....any thoughts?

ALH_4

pressure

Your current pressure of 2psi tells me that there is not much reserve fluid ,if any, in your system. It is possible that opening the vents on the baseboard upstairs will let more air in rather than letting air out. You need more fluid in the system in order to bleed the air. Something has leaked to the point where your pressure is low and air has entered the system. The source of this leak should be determined when re-pressurizing the system. It sounds as if you need a service call from a professional.

-Andrew

Brad White_9

Yes, by

adding water. As stated elsewhere, do not do this when the boiler is hot. From the sounds of things you have heat on the lower floors but the upper floor seems to be dry.

If the system can be assured of having water in it, shut it off and let it cool. Add water slowly via the fill valve lever until the gauge pressure rises to about 15 PSI. Then vent the radiators at the top level.

Doing this will reduce the pressure and may not be enough to fill the top of the system. Close the vents, go back to the basement and fill once again. Back upstairs to vent until you get a good solid stream of water out of each vent without sputtering (you or the vent) .

Top the pressure off to at least 12 PSI at the boiler.

Once filled with water, turn the power back on to the boiler. You may hear some gurgling of trapped air and this can be vented off soon thereafter.

If you have any doubts whatsoever, call a pro.

Brad White_9

See above and

check your expansion tank.

Edit- As Andrew said, look for obvious signs of leakage. If the loss of pressure (water volume) was this sudden, there should be some sign of it.

Where are you located?

Rob_39

pressure

I don't know if the loss is sudden. We have looked and looked and no spot of water leaking anywhere. The boiler did need water and the pressure immediately went up...then we purged...now we're keeping our fingers crossed

brucewo1b

Kris

is there a shut off on the return from that zone and a bioler drain near before it, you may have to purge it from the basement. If the circulators are on the returns that is usually where the shutoff and dpurge valve are.

Rob_39

exactly

We believe we have successfully purged!

brucewo1b

Well you should know shortly good luck

Rob_39

pressure might be too high?

Between adding water to the boiler and purging, our pressure has been at 18.....do I need to get it down to 12? How ?

ALH_4

18

Anything under 20 psi should be ok.

Hope it all works out.

-Andrew

Rob_39

can't thank everyone enough !!

Brad White_151

So...

You have heat now?

Rob_39

Tuesday Morning Update

Last night we found out there was no water coming through the return pipe, boiler needed water. After filling and purging pressure went immediately up. Still No heat upstairs but......in one of the bedrooms upstairs the pipe in the baseboard is hot, but it doesn't seem to be radiating any heat. In the other bedroom the pipe is cold and obviously not radiating heat either. On the positive side, the house seems to be heating a lot faster, quieter and evenly...the pressure is still at 18. Maybe we didn't purge/bleed long enough? I feel like we're on the right track, just not quite there yet.

Brad White_9

Purging and Bleeding

has a certain Medieval Medical ring to it, does it not?

A little more purging seems to be in order. If you get desperate, a saddle-type needle valve makes and OK air vent for those stubborn pockets. But the 18 lbs. sounds good, it should be enough to compress the air and force it out when called upon.

Kris_3

bleeding

How long should I bleed for?? In other words, I'll attach the hose again, run it outside and open the valve...how will I know when it's done?

Brad White_151

A steady stream of water

with no obvious entrained air is what you want. When will it be done? You will know by the fact that you have heat and no gurgling. But stop when you get a steady stream and the stream runs for another minute or two at least.

(The term "purging" as I use it, means the flushing of air out of piping using sheer water power. The term "bleeding" means the releasing of air from high points using vents. If you have no vents, you now know, you must purge.)

The key principles are velocity and pressure. You should hear a good rush (velocity noise) which is what you need to force air -which wants to bubble up to the top of the system- to be carried away with the water.

As part of maintaining velocity, you want to "Focus" your purging on one zone at a time. If the zone splits in two, see if you can isolate each branch and purge them separately.

The second part is pressure- think of choking down the outlet a little bit. "Back-pressure" we call it. This ensures that air bubbles are squeezed together where they touch and so get carried out together; that is the best way I can explain it.

If you dribble in water under low velocity and pressure, by contrast, you will possible entrain more air into the system. Fill that sucker with water!

I have purged entire circuits in five to ten minutes. Some have taken 30 minutes or more and some repeated attempts. Depends on length, pipe size, how many "side roads" and available water pressure.

Kris_3

didn't purge correctly

I don't think we purged the right valve...I count four...one low thinner pipe on the boiler and three on the ceiling on thicker pipes running to the baseboards....

Brad White_151

Without Photos - Re-post with diagram

I will have to guess here that the thinner pipe at the boiler is the cold water fill line (maybe?). The valves going to the baseboard, are these drain valves with hose-ends or are these isolation valves in-line? Are there also drain valves on the return side? Let me see if I can re-post with a diagram to illustrate what I mean.

Brad

EDIT: Re-posted with diagram, just to illustrate what I hope you have for a set-up. But if you have photos, post them by all means!

Kris_3

I do have photos!

> I will have to guess here that the thinner pipe

> at the boiler is the cold water fill line

> (maybe?). The valves going to the baseboard, are

> these drain valves with hose-ends or are these

> isolation valves in-line? Are there also drain

> valves on the return side? Let me see if I can

> re-post with a diagram to illustrate what I

> mean.

>

> Brad

Kris_3

I do have photos!

Can I email them to you?

DanHolohan

You should

post them here. That way everyone learns.

Kris_3

pictures posted here

If you can help me identify which valve/valves to use, that would be great!

Timco

Close the black handle and purge from the blue handle above it. The 'dome' looking thing with a valve on both sides is the pressure reducer. Both valves will need to be open, then you can lift that lever to get the pressure up to purge. I do see signs of leaks on the boiler as well as your air vent / expansion tank. Are any currently wet?

Tim

Kris_3

signs of leak?

I just went down again and didn't see anything wet...which picture number are you looking at and where do you see leaks?

brucewo1b

Kris

Close the black valve over the circ then close the red one on top then purge the one that goes to the second floor or both if you do not know which one it is, do them one at a time and open the fast fill on the pressure reducng valve keeping an eye on boiler pressure if it gets over 25 close the fast fill valve until it gets under twenty the faster you can purge under higher pressure the better it will purge. But oer thirty and the relief valve pops. I would purge from the blue ones on top.

Kris_3

Just to be sure...which is the fast fill valve? The boiler needs to be off correct? Is there any damage I could do if I bleed the wrong one? I could three valves not including the black one.

[Deleted User]

Diagram

I've labeled the valves in this picture for you. Try to purge from the blue guys on top - use the one that goes to the second floor, if you can figure out which. One of the blue valves up top is hiding behind another pipe in your picture, but I found him.

If you want to use the one I've labeled "alternate purge," leave the red one on top that I've labeled "close me" open.

When you're done, put all the valves back the way you found them.

brucewo1b

Excellant Mark

but if he tries to purrge with the via alternate purge with the red on top open he will be purging both at once and probably not get all the air out of the top zone best to keep red valve closed. Otherwise right on.

Kris_3

Mark...

I cannot tell you how much this helps and how much we appreciate it! This picture will most likely get framed next to our boiler for future reference as well! We will attempt to purge after work today...luckily we're having another unseasonably warm day so the kids aren't complaining about their rooms being cold. I'll let you know how we make out.