Wilo?

Unknown

i assume you've been to their website?

i chatted them up at their booth (best one of the show!)at the CIPHEX west show in Calgary a month ago, it sounds like Wilo and Grundfos are neck and neck to see who will release the first small delta P variable speed pump in north america. Wilo told me should be mid next year before we see them.

GW

where do I learn more?

I like the variable speed with pressure sensing, neat stuff. Where do I learn more?

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[Deleted User]

Here...

http://www.wilo-na.com/

ME

Brian

Disappointed

I was looking forward to speaking to a local rep. about their product. So I went to the website to see who it is and it's the one company I'll have nothing to do with.They're not allowed on my job sites.You can't even ask them what time it is without them getting back to you,if at all,for a couple of weeks.Sorry Wilo

Dobber

Unknown

Dissappointed

Hi Dobber - Steve Thompson from WILO here. Can you contact me via E Mail to discuss this.

Regards...

Weezbo

Try Wilo Canada....

Uni R_2

weez...

he's talking about the regional/provincial company that represents them

Weezbo

Yikes *~/:)

so he is

"no problem, let me call cousin Louie wid the baseball bat"...:)

disavow any prior communications this conversation may be monitored to protect you our valuable customer and for training purposes only....

Louie, Louie!, get the lead bat out... we got a small training session for youse to conduct:)

GW

web

yes, I checked out the site and ended up in a several hundred page pdf file... not what I was expecting.

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heatboy

Can't think of a reason........

.....to switch from Grundfos when they offer all I need. Would someone enlighten me?

hb

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Troy_3

Wilo

Nice product. I just got back from a one day training. Steve was great. Very knowledgable, easy to understand even though he is from the great white north. They have some trick stuff coming down the pike. I think grundfos has some real competition now on this side of the pond. I've used the small wet rotor pumps. I picked up some wet rotor commercial pumps yesterday for todays work. I can't wait to fire them. Variable speed will be so nice. No not yet.

Ross_7

why?

I'm with HB on this one. What makes Wilo such a rock star among other pumps. Has anyone used these pumps exclusively? Are there field service stories, that makes these pumps so outstanding? Just curious, not bad mouthing anyone's product. Just would like to know

Constantin

Differentiation = Good

Whether you make a switch or not, more competitors in the same market usually drive innovation, customer service, etc. forward.

Wilo may have some interesting VS pumps on the way that may give high-end installers an edge in terms of control, energy efficiency, etc. It may also drive Grundfos to start offering their alpha pro series in a 60Hz/115VAC version. IMO, this market has the potential to explode if the Δ$ is brought down between single-speed pumps and their VS, smart bretheren.

Using VS drives and responsive controls is yet another way to "right-size" a circulators to match loads with minimal energy consumption. Given the claims of 80% electrical energy consumption reductions in "real life" conditions that some manufacturers have made, smart pumps that are only marginally more expensive than single-speed pumps may become economically justifiable for homeowners.

For instance, were we to assume that a grundfos super-brute 3-speed is $100 and attached to a constant-circ system in Boston, then it's 90W of consumption would translate to about $40 a season (4 months @ 90W + $0.2 per kWh). If the smart version could be sold for $200 and an 80% energy reduction is viable, then the resultant 3-year payback is pretty attractive given that most of these pumps last 10+ years.

On systems with micro-loads, individual room-zoning, or lots of TRVs, such pumps can make even more sense, since they eliminate the need for a PAB (if needed), reducing the marginal cost of using a smart pump.

Ross_7

Pumps

I realize the energy savings for variable speed vs. constant speed a'la differential pressure switch. We have both here on campus. Multi-speed pumps are nice when matching the attached load. But for basic systems like a single zone application, or one with zone valves w/o constant circulation. I'm not trying to be one dimensional on my thinking, but not every application is considered "high end" hydronics. What makes Wilo above eveyone else, or does it turn into a matter of preference?
Didn't Grundfos already offer a VS residential pumps with Roth zoned manifold systems? I thought B&G recently added a "bolt-on" variable speed set-up for the NRF-22.

Ross_7

Pumps

I realize the energy savings for variable speed vs. constant speed a'la differential pressure switch. We have both here on campus. Multi-speed pumps are nice when matching the attached load. But for basic systems like a single zone application, or one with zone valves w/o constant circulation. I'm not trying to be one dimensional on my thinking, but not every application is considered "high end" hydronics. What makes Wilo above eveyone else, or does it turn into a matter of preference?
Didn't Grundfos already offer a VS residential pumps with Roth zoned manifold systems? I thought B&G recently added a "bolt-on" variable speed set-up for the NRF-22.

[Deleted User]

Talk versus action...

Grundfos PROMISED me that their small, wet rotored VS pump would be available on the N.A. market 7 years ago.

PROMISED.

I, for one have been waiting every since, begging, pleading and cajoling other pump manufacturers to do the same.

Wilo is doing what they say. Not dragging their feet because "The North American market is not ready for this product".

Wilo is BIG in the European market place, and they're bringing that fire power to the North American market, because they feel the market is ripe. Instead of looking down thier nose at the "93 percent forced air market", they see it as a "97% untapped potential market share..."

Besides, as Constantin so wisely pointed out, competition on the open market is a good thing. Grundfos has held the public at bay for far too long IMHO.

Wilo is going to be introducing product that will change the way we do system designs. Hide and watch.

I had dinner with the president of Wilo GMBH. The man's primary focus and vision is having the worlds happiest employees. His attitude is that if you take care of your people, they will gladly do their job and take care of the customers. It is obviously working quite well for them.

ME

Troy_3

Competition can be good

I always say that too, jeff. Why does my market need all these other wannabees when they got me. But some how they survive too. It keeps us humble and ever striving to be better.

Ross_7

\"Hide & Watch\"

Well, Mark
That's fine. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with the higher up's at Grudfos. I'm all for improvement of products on the market that will kick other manufacturers in the **** a little bit in the name of friendly competition, and product improvent. Because, we the installers & service technicians are only going to benefit. If there's smarter not harder way of doing things for install I'm all for it. But I'll tell you one thing is for sure I'm not going "hide & watch" anything. Quality &Reliability should be job #1 for ALL manufacturers. I would just like to hear some input from dedicated Wilo pump users who have dealt with them in the field. Contractors usually pick products & stick with them for good reasons, and some drop certain product lines for good reasons. Just like the current topic on the Wall concerning B&G pumps.

heatboy

Realistically..................

..........how much of a demand for VS pumps exists. Sure, everyone here would probably embrace the technology, but we are miniscule percentage of an already tiny market. My area is replete with........well, land of the blind guys. If there was a huge demand for these pumps, as well as other coolies, Grundfos would have landed them here years ago, methinks.

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hr

It's a chicken or the egg thingr

> ..........how much of a demand for VS pumps

> exists. Sure, everyone here would probably

> embrace the technology, but we are miniscule

> percentage of an already tiny market. My area is

> replete with........well, land of the blind guys.

> If there was a huge demand for these pumps, as

> well as other coolies, Grundfos would have landed

> them here years ago, methinks.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 304&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_





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hr

It's a chicken or the egg thing

Which comes first. Do the manufactures wait for the demand or do they introduce a product and teach contractors the benefits, to build the market.

It would be interesting to know how many delta T and delta P small circs are sold in other markets. As`I recall that Grundfos Alpha was shown at the Frankfurt ISH about 14 years ago!

I believe the Wilo delta circs have been around in some form in the European market also. Hense the 230V 50 Hz.

Mod cons, a product of Europe sure are taking big market share from the copper and cast boilers. Certainly Pete formerly with MZ and Dave Davis of HTP take the credit for developing that market. Last count I came up with about 30 brands now on the market.

As for Ross's question regarding reliability, that's a million dollar question! Only time will tell. Not every product of Euro origin pans out in the US market and application conditions.

I'm still game for trying the cutting edge products, knowing not all will be winners.

I do try to not paint myself in a corner and have an option to replace the component with a time proven brand. That's fairly easy with small wet rotor circs. They all fit the same flange dimension

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

If you build it, they will come....

Jeff, If you will remember, 5 to 7 years ago nobody was doing mod cons or primary secondary piping either. Now EVERYONE is doing it.

I think once the overall benefits of VSP is known, most suppliers will jump on the band wagon and it will catch on fire just like the mod cons and P/S piping schemes have.

Imagine if you will, the ability to transfer the solar heat that is falling directly on the floor of a large room, and being able to transfer it to another part of the room, thereby reducing room over temp due to compounded solar gains, and balancing out the thermal comfort of the room without having to fire the boiler or main pump.

Wilo can do that.

ME

[Deleted User]

The Wilo...

doesn't depend on transducers. It's much smarter than that. As for proven reliability, it may be new to our market, but they've been making circulators over in Germany since the early 1900's. Trust me, they're not new to the circulator game. They've been around the block once or thrice. And they know they're going to run into some resistance. And Grundfos and everyone else knows they're about to knock on the door, HARD.

ME