Recommendations for remote monitoring

Brad White_149

that this is a job for a DDC system. I am partial to Automated Logic but specify all except Basys, this being the first time I heard of them. (Always something new here!)

Installation is a "local thing" so your brance office management spells it out.

LonWorks (LonMark) may have an application and works well is smaller buildings but is rather intensive at the device level (every device has a neuron chip and waits it's turn for looped information).

First thing I would do is write down your needs: Monitor temperatures? Start/Stop/Enable (Hand-Off-Auto)? Status on-off? Alarms (high or low temperatures, inconsistent status)? Hot water supply temperature, hot water return temperature, domestic HW temperature. Circulator operation using current sensors (Veris Hawkeye is one brand I like) is a treat. Worth it on any central circulators or to monitor status of any "must run" equipment.

At the basic level these are the factors I would monitor.

The beauty of DDC is, say you monitor space temperature or HW temperature, any temperature for that matter. All you are doing is gathering information and from a single sensor per function. Once you have that data, you can read it for information and alarm any value you like, be it high or low. If this were done in hard-wired logic, you would need a high limit and low limit temperature to be adjusted on-site.

The boilers often come with nice stand-alone control packages if not Tekmar control systems. My philosophy would be to instrument the boilers to operate automatically for OD reset, DHW priority, etc. as applicable. Let these do what they do best and spend your monitoring dollars on a more global system.

Monitor temperatures and alarm inconsistent status (for example boiler circulator is enabled to run when it is below 60 degrees F outside. It is 34 outside and there is no current flow- alarm that. A unit's temperature drops x degrees below outdoor temperature -alarm that. Those kinds of things.

But start with a list of your needs to be priced and go from there, would be my advice.

John_140

Recommendations for Monitoring

We have 10 three family buildings that we are looking to upgrade. Currently using 25 year old hotwater boilers (70 to 78%)with thermostats in each apartment. We would like to move towards something like the Laars Endurance for heat and dhw. Additionally we are interested in remote monitoring of boiler systems as well as possible space sensors. Ideally, we would like a system that could combine all of the buildings, since they are all attached. Any recommendations ?


Thanks

John

hvacfreak

BAS

Ok , this is my opinion as I see it in the Washington DC area...

JCI - probably the industry standard in building automation . Hardware seems extremely durable , installing contractors are good. Not my favorite software , but it seems to perform as expected.

Seimens - same as above , and very strong installing techs. Probably my fav.

Invensys - same as above , and nice software.

Honeywell - hmmm.. my wife made a great dinner yesterday

Automated Logic - great hardware and software , not so strong installation.

Andover - limited experience , hardware seemed good , not so strong installer , no software experience.

Basys - if I were doing this myself , I'd be tempted to go with these folks. Small business friendly , real time web based support , quality hardware.

Keep in mind that this opinion is based from a field perspective only , I have no knowledge of the contract specifics on any of the listed experiences ( if someone didn't get much , perhaps that's what they paid for ).

Also , don't under-estimate the scope of work involved ( more than a few cables to pull from your description ). BAS have come a long way in recent years ( even wireless ) ...but alot of work indeed. - Mike

Kevin_in_Denver_2

If cost matters

The WEL is under $500. It also has the minimum possible wiring cost. (Web energy logger at ourcoolhouse.com)

Homeseer seems to be getting some market share for the "early adopter" consumer type applications.

Constantin

Another vote for the WEL...

... inexpensive but perhaps not as sophisticated as the LonWorks offerings. On the other hand, Phil Malone is always expanding the capabilities of the WEL, the sensors it can communicate with, etc. All you need is a internet-connection and you can see the values / parameters changing in real time. Pretty nifty, IMO.

hvacfreak

Basys info

http://www.tcsbasys.com/

Some like them , some don't...they always answer thier phone and help me with any problem I've come across involving a product of thiers.

Check out the " Superstat " product line on the site ...neat stuff. - Mike

Kevin_in_Denver_2

basys

What's a rough cost for, say, a 10 point monitoring system?

m dewolfe

automation

The very simple answer is a sensaphone 2000. I have several of these units and they monitor run times and room temperature as well as tank levels and can report an alarm for a burner lockout. a realy great piece of equipment that can do a multitude of things. very easy to set up and learn too...mark

hvacfreak

money is no object

I have no idea of the cost of anything..controls , piping , or otherwise ( for the most part ).

But , I'll do my best ( I'm not in the Building Automation Business )...10 points ( analog assumed ), lets itemize:

lets say 4 current transformers @ 50 bucks = 200.00

and 6 sensors cost unknown

wire cost unknown

controller ( s ) cost unknown

server w internet connection ( total guess ) 1700.00

graphics software cost unknown

labor ( T & M , lol )

This setup will have other options such as remote setpoint control and graphics display / control.

I mentioned the Superstat to Brad White , I have used this control ( local control ) to solve alot of problems. -M

hvacfreak

BAS

I see that there are some " nifty " gadgets on the market that can send data to a remote user via the web ( some very interesting info posted ).

If I had multiple large buildings ( I have a garage and a shed , lol ) ..I'd get estimates from a few BAS/DDC contractors ...the energy saved may pay for this work in a very short time. The big control firms can evaluate and provide stratagies that cannot be matched in building control...I'm taking zone control resets on different floors ( rooms ) in real - time ( instant ). Apples to apples.-M

Rich_38

Automation

> I see that there are some " nifty " gadgets on

> the market that can send data to a remote user

> via the web ( some very interesting info posted

> ).

>

> If I had multiple large buildings ( I

> have a garage and a shed , lol ) ..I'd get

> estimates from a few BAS/DDC contractors ...the

> energy saved may pay for this work in a very

> short time. The big control firms can evaluate

> and provide stratagies that cannot be matched in

> building control...I'm taking zone control resets

> on different floors ( rooms ) in real - time (

> instant ). Apples to apples.-M



> I see that there are some " nifty " gadgets on

> the market that can send data to a remote user

> via the web ( some very interesting info posted

> ).

>

> If I had multiple large buildings ( I

> have a garage and a shed , lol ) ..I'd get

> estimates from a few BAS/DDC contractors ...the

> energy saved may pay for this work in a very

> short time. The big control firms can evaluate

> and provide stratagies that cannot be matched in

> building control...I'm taking zone control resets

> on different floors ( rooms ) in real - time (

> instant ). Apples to apples.-M



I agree with most of the replies. One specifically is the response that speeks about what points to monitor. My recomendation would be to provide one or two controller the address, depending how fancy you want to get, provide one with either internet capabilities or dial in capabilities. If you choose internet you will need a server machine that is adressed and holds the ip addresses of each controller...then add to a computer designated to view all of the information. Say in the main office. This may cost some fee to be able to get the building online...but then again you will be able to see them from anywhere...vacation??.Sure you will be right over!! The second choice might be seperate stand alone building with dial out/in capabilities. Then all you need is a modem and some simple commands to access the points ( this is dos based) but things like Terminal services or hyper terminal( free) would do the job. A bit more computer work here! Might not be the fastest or easiest if you are not computer literate.

As far as vendors go...I LIKE SIEMENS! I have had experience with all of the above...I worked for Andover..YUCK! Johnson?? Can you say electricians installiing it...then hire someone else to program...who fixes it when its broke?? NO SUPPORT! NASTY...and finally LON?? CRAZY!! Why should you pay for equipment then pay for it to be installed..then not be able to use it because you have to buy neuron chips?? Talk about holding you over a barell!
Obviously I gave you a broad brush overview of what is needed. If you have any questions feel free and i can get more detailed.

mtfallsmikey

I'm sure glad

That some of you have had "good" experiences with Siemens. I have contracts with them on fire systems in both of my buildings, and they are totally unresponsive.I had to go to Wheelock's website to find a replacement circuit board for them! They could not find it themselves! JCI is the Cadillac of EMS's I have Trane Tracer Summit here (yuk!)
All mfr's have wireless systems out there now too. I wouls guess a system like we are talking about is too expensive to set up for residential use.

Constantin

Yup...

... that's why I like the WEL. Simple to set up, expandable, and Phil takes care of the server to run everything on. All you need is a internet connection. What the WEL will not do at this point is actually cause something to happen - it is compeltely passive. But for the amount of money it goes for, it is a very powerful little unit.

bob_84

I have first hand experience with Automated Logic in the NY area. The have the worst service after the install, and the parent company does NOT support the customer but sides with the franchised dealer. STAY FAR FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!