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Getting tired of the quoting game?

After 8000 hours as an apprentice, and 8000 hours as a journeyman, my skills as a professional demand compensation. No person who actually believes in their abilities can justify passing that knowledge on for free. If you do, you cheapen yourself and your trade.

Like Mark E. I give one or two minor courtesy responses, and then if it isn't resolved I recommend meeting with them in person, on site to discuss their system and potential fixes, noting my hourly rate and that it starts when I leave the shop.

Many are serious and are more than willing to pay for my knowledge and experience. The rest say thank you and they will check their schedule. Either way, you are not giving away what you worked so hard to attain.

Comments

  • Rich Ferris
    Rich Ferris Member Posts: 72
    Getting tired of the quoting games?

    My wife overheard my conversation this morning with a Customer (Not mine but I contract for the Oil Company he deals with). Last Nov. I went out to the house at the Oil companies request to find out 1. Why the heat is minimal on Cold days 2. Why the house take forever when they turn it down to 60 during the day and up again when they come home. 3. Why the hot water runs out and can't recover when the heat is on. Huge house with standup radiators 3Ft high and all about 6' long. The boiler that had just been installed by the Customer's (Plumber Friend). Well after I had looked at the system, the added two zones and the indirect it was clearly undersized and without a bypass the boiler didn't stand a chance. I looked at the wiring and no priority (though the taco 504 has ability) not utilized. No low limt control. It happened to be 45 degrees that day. I turned the Thermostat up and watched the boiler just about croak. From 180 to 90 in 8.3 seconds (exacerated) but not acceptable. I looked at the wiring and well what can you say but Hmmmmm. I did not have any authorization to fix anything just report my findings to the operations manager at the Oil Company. A letter with all info given. Then I get slamned by the Property owner for picking on his Plumber. Well I let it go and went on to the next item. Now a year later. The Wife of the Property Owner wants Me to make the system right. She doesn't want to be cold and not have the hot water etc. Again I go out. This time I measure the heat loss. Just as I thought. The boiler Max BTU's is less than half of the calculated loss. So now what? I got asked to provide a quote to replace this unit (proper size) repipe and wire it properly. Two weeks ago I send it out. The Property owner calls me this a.m. Ask me. Are you busy? Can you answer some questions. I start going through the list. Well my Wife gives me that look. What is going with these people? You spend more time consuling them without any fee's. Seems like I give them the info them someone else (low balls the price) gets the job. My wife say's your to nice and willing to give people information. The Fact is I grew up in a Family Full Service Oil Co. that my Dad used to do free Service for his Automatic accounts. Labor that is. Now it seems I'm working for Free also. The saying " Get multiple quotes" is really getting Old for the Honest Contactor trying to make ends meet and not screw the customer. In turn I'm getting screwed. Your thoughts. Thanks, just venting since the the Wife took a similar call today while I was out freezing my butt helping a Great Friend from this wall put a tank in. (Strickly for moral support) LOL

    Rich
  • Ericjeeper
    Ericjeeper Member Posts: 179
    I know the feeling.

    I am in the window business, But I get tired of going to their home measuring up the windows. Sitting down explaining why my windows are an excellent buy. They say we will get in touch with you.And they do not have enough common courtesy to call me and let me know how my bid faired.If I was sky high I want to know.. Or if the other guy just leaned on em harder.
    What irks me the most is when someone price apples to my oranges.Leaving the homeowner feeling like I was screwing em silly.hey they asked for the best from me.. why not ask for his best too?
  • Rich,

    Not to quote a familiar American but, "I Feel Your Pain", I`m on the other side of the border and this happens here all the time! You are not alone! I can just tell when people start talking to me, that they are "fishing" for information, and have no intention of giving you the job. What does a person do? Well, I could get P***ED and tell him-off, but if I started doing that I`d have no customers at all. Or just take-it, and still have a few customers. It`s a tough choice, and to be honest, I`m still wondering. Just when I think I`ve had enough, a good job comes along with great people, and I forget about it again. If I had 10cents for every idiot that ever walked through my door, we`d all be down in Pto. Vallarta sippin Marguritas my treat! Stay Cool!!!
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    charge

    I now charge to do an estimate which includes a room by room heatloss.


    Massachusetts
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    free estimates

    always be vague . when it comes to the technical calculations ----they come with a serious price tag. always get paid for your knowlege. anyone can assemble pipe. it is the directions that make it work properly. always a fee for a written estimate
  • Rollie Peck
    Rollie Peck Member Posts: 47


    Hi Rich:

    I'm assuming that your report to the oil company stated

    facts such as "the boiler appears to be too small for the

    heating load" rather than "the dummy who installed the

    boiler used one that is too small". When the customer

    complained, I would have told him that I stated the facts of

    the case to the best of my ability and that he was welcome

    to have another knowledgeable heating contractor give him a

    second opinion.

    When Mrs. customer called to get a quote on a fix, I'd

    have told her that I charge X dollars an hour to do the

    necesary calculations and measurements. If I get the

    contract for the job, that amount will be deducted from the

    normal job cost. All information is my property until you

    pay for it. That may seem harsh, but I've been cheated out

    of the cost of my time and expertise too many times to do

    otherwise. Do you still want me to provide you with a quote?

    This approach seems fair to you and the customer.

    Good luck,

    Rollie Peck

    Homeowner
  • Rich Ferris
    Rich Ferris Member Posts: 72
    O.K. I'm not alone

    > Hi Rich: I'm assuming that your report

    > to the oil company stated

    >

    > facts such as "the

    > boiler appears to be too small for the

    > heating load" rather than "the dummy who

    > installed the

    >

    > boiler used one that is too

    > small". When the customer

    >

    > complained, I would

    > have told him that I stated the facts of

    >

    > the

    > case to the best of my ability and that he was

    > welcome

    >

    > to have another knowledgeable heating

    > contractor give him a

    >

    > second opinion.

    > When Mrs. customer called to get a quote on a

    > fix, I'd

    >

    > have told her that I charge X

    > dollars an hour to do the

    >

    > necesary

    > calculations and measurements. If I get the

    > contract for the job, that amount will be

    > deducted from the

    >

    > normal job cost. All

    > information is my property until you

    >

    > pay for

    > it. That may seem harsh, but I've been cheated

    > out

    >

    > of the cost of my time and expertise too

    > many times to do

    >

    > otherwise. Do you still want

    > me to provide you with a quote?

    >

    > This

    > approach seems fair to you and the

    > customer.

    >

    > Good luck,

    >

    > Rollie

    > Peck

    >

    > Homeowner



  • Good for you!

    SELL your expertise, DON'T GIVE it away.

    People will milk you for all your worth, for FREE!

    I'll answer one or two questions for free, but when they really start digging, I tell them up front that I charge for telephone consultations at a rate of $2.00 per minute with a 60 minute minimum. The clocks started...I'm yours for the next hour. If they're serious, they'll hang. If their not, they'll probably hang up and call back, expecting two more freebie questions...

    You HAVE to establish this up front, or they will pick you dry.

    When you charge for your services, it commands respect.

    I'm not going to say anything negative to those who are still giving it away because I used to do the same thing, other than to tell you to consider changing your ways...

    ME
  • Rich Ferris
    Rich Ferris Member Posts: 72
    O.K. I'm not alone

    Thanks,

    I agree that a fee should be for every scenerio but then the Bigger Co.s advertise free estimates. The hair goes up on the customers if I mention a fee and then that's it. No second chances. And the letter I gave started with "It is my Proffessional opinion ....." Well even some of my good customer's at first were shopping around but I got th job. But it seems that I'm losing th battle more often and making less in the process. What's the name of the Tractor Trailer Training school ( Just Kidding)

    Rich
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    Size of Pipe?

    Curious...

    Would you call the size of piping used in a system (gas or water) a technical calculation? That would help honest people use the quote to help determine who is doing it best. It's never a fun surprise to find out that your selected highest bidder has minimal standards and went all cheap on piping or something like that - new gas lines not done with provisions and capacity for the future for example.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
    TECHNICAL PIPE SIZES

    there are numerous ways to assure the client that you do actually know what you are doing without specifying exact pipe sizes et al that if you have to figure out are definitely technical calculations. it is also rule of thumb to note lines etc. are exceeding standard procedure or sized for futures. normal selling points. next comes the written proposal accompanied by a CHECK. After i secure the job at a price i am comfortable with , i can be very generous giving extra's f.o.c. [free of charge ] it has to be good for both of us.
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    Estimate

    Well, when I charge, they actually get useful information; like a heat loss/heat gain or radiant design. So they are paying me for my services and they get something out of it.

    Massachusetts
  • Paul Aguilar
    Paul Aguilar Member Posts: 9


    I remind you that that you are not a wrencher, but a business man. If the world was perfect we could simply wrench and simply get paid for that. We are marketers, plumbers, bill collectors, employers. This is why hourly rates are what they are. Please, keep the faith, There are more sincere customers out there than hustlers. Sometimes it may not seem that way, but it is true. I can tell that you are a very good guy. Keep the faith.
  • Ray M
    Ray M Member Posts: 94


    Agreed. I tell the customer up front that a heat loss with supporting paper work is thiers. A fee is charged for this. If i do the job it is deducted. You have to empasise that THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. You cant size a system any other way period.

    Thanks
    Ray M
    Comfort Tech Corp
  • don_182
    don_182 Member Posts: 69
    May Iask

    Why do we say it will be deducted if we get the job?

    Its a one time fee,they paid for it..its there.
    How about this, this is my price for the consult and design due now,AND THEN, this is our price to do the job.

    I mean if you willin to deduct this if you get the job then
    what else can I get you to deduct as the job goes on.

    Deduct...sound like I'm shopping Wal-Mart.

    Happy Hoildays!


  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,807
    estimates & calcs

    I have found that if I figure the heat loss of the structure and check for any install problems, that is the only thing I need to get an estimate together. I include in my estimate the time & $ to do all the rest of calcs, room x room loads, pipe size, layout etc. But I do not do all this prior because I can figure what I need in $s w/ out full design and then if they want to sign up, I then will do all the finishing touches. Saves a lot of wasted time & $. jmho, Tim.


  • Where I used to work the salesmen would measure the baseboard and use that to size the boiler. They were usually oversizing the equipment as a result. It took about fifteen minutes for them to come up with a price and they weren't the lowest bidder and got alot of jobs. I don't know how many times I got in arguements with them. The only number they had was feet of baseboard on a scrap piece of paper. Looks professional. If you charge for a heatloss/gain justify it to the customers by telling them about the many companies that guess and are usually wrong at the expense of the customer. Show them all the paperwork to back it up.
  • Ray M
    Ray M Member Posts: 94


    This makes it atractive to customer. You are not wasting your time and the small fee can can be easily be worth the "Rebate" for the work.

    Thanks

    Ray M

    Comfort Tech Corp
  • Leo
    Leo Member Posts: 770
    You Started this thread

    "The hair goes up on the customers if I mention a fee and then that's it. No second chances."

    You started this thread because someone called you back a year later and you feel your time is being wasted. Why worry about a second chance with tire kickers. As far as the customer bad mouthing you could there be someone at the oil company that said you bad mouthed the plumber? Maybe not done to be mean just out of stupidity. Some guys try to be funny only to come across as a jerk or idiot.

    Leo
  • Steve Garson_2
    Steve Garson_2 Member Posts: 712


    Mark:

    Your response is right on! You need to sell the value of your skills. I would tell a client asking for a quotation that unless they get the detailed specs, they have no way to compare quotations. Sell them on your quality. Your work won't require call-backs. The low bid may be nothing but trouble. Share references up front. Show photos of great work. Sell! But don't give away free information. Maybe refer them to Heatinghelp.com, which will educate them and then maybe they will see your great postings and think more highly of your company versus the others.
    Steve from Denver, CO
  • Mark Wolff_2
    Mark Wolff_2 Member Posts: 77
    ????

    New gas lines not sized for future expansion? Why doesn't the customer pay to have it expanded now? Why should the installer be expected to assume anything about a job that isn't stated or obviously implied?

    If the homeowner or contractor only wants minimal gas piping and you quote for all potential future demands, you may lose the job.

    I think you should ask if there is any additional load planned, but most of us aren't psychic.
  • Mark Wolff_2
    Mark Wolff_2 Member Posts: 77
    Deductions?

    Why do you deduct for the time and effort involved with the calculations? If you were told that you had the job no matter what, you would still be charging for the effort you put in to calculate what was needed, why give it as a freebie once you get the job on competitive bid?
  • tom_49
    tom_49 Member Posts: 269
    Ted

    Ted,

    You wrote: "I now charge to do an estimate which includes a room by room heatloss. "

    How is that working out? Whats the percentage of people who dont want to pay for a proper heat loss?

    I too am tired of giving my knowledge out for free.

    Tom



  • Keith_8
    Keith_8 Member Posts: 399
    Be a consultant

    My advise would be to treat the sales call as if you were a consultant. Be candid, be helpful, explain their options, explain the thought process that goes into laying out a project. That should give the consumer the confidence that you are the correct contractor for their project.

    Be patient, you will develop a 6th sense for the problem customers. If it smells bad up front it will taste bad down the road. That takes some time. Learn to understand personanlities. Different personalities require an adjusted sales approach. To much information overwhelms some people. To little information leaves the analytical consumer with a void.

    The bottom line is that all of us develop and continue to develop our sales approach. I don't charge for estimates, I ask questions if I hear sincerety in their responces, that will get me to the door. If I get a " This is a complete waste of time feeling" I won't bother. I have told customers we are not the right contractor for you.

    Be confident, you'll find your style.

    Keith
  • G-rott
    G-rott Member Posts: 14
    Deductions...Why?

    Because customers like the sound of it. Make your money doing the job not the estimate.

    On that estimate give general specifications only, boiler type, amount of re-piping nessary, number of zones, radiator type or style.

    Offer a detailed quote including heatloss and equipment specifications for a extra charge. Deducted frome the final payment. You have to do the calculation to do the job right any way so the price should have been included in the estimate.

    The only extra here is the time to print it out and sell it to the customer, salesmanship and customer relations(training).

    Garett
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    hvac64

    Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now.

    Charging works out well for me, since I save tons of time with the tire kickers.

    Of the people I charge, I get at least 75% of the jobs, maybe more. That's because they know I take my work seriously and am working for their best interest.


    Massachusetts

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