Geothermal Unit overloads and Radiant quits-help

Brent_2

You are correct that water furnace calls for 1" lines between the unit and the storage tank. What connections do you think the installer is trying to use for DHW?
It will be interesting to hear what information the homeowner can provide. It looks like a bad situation.

Kevin_50

Geothermal Unit overloads and Radiant quits-help

I just had my house built last year. I live in Oklahoma and we don’t get real cold winters for as long as you guys up north do. I have a WaterFurnace geothermal unit that cools the house and provides the hot water for the hydro radiant in the slab. Unfortunately I’m the guinea pig for this system in Oklahoma. This is the only Geothermal and Radiant system these guys have in installed in OKC. We have a problem they just can’t seem to fix. When the system runs for a while the geothermal unit will overload and the red light will come on and just quit providing hot water to radiant. The geothermal guy added an “Aqua Thermostat” to the radiant system. Supposedly this is to stop the geothermal unit when the water from the radiant reaches is max temperature. We thought we had it all fixed until today I came home and noticed it was cold in the house. I went upstairs and low and behold the geothermal unit had overloaded again and shut off.

Any ideas on how we can resolve my issues?
Thanks Kevin

Andy_19

I would call water furnace to get the factory rep to come out with the installer. You probably don't have the correct amount of water running through the heat pump and it then kicks out the high pressure switch for the refrigerant pressure. That piping set up does not look like any thing that water furnace shows in their install manuals. waterfurnace.com

Weezbo

where are the temp gauges?

i like the wirsbo pump block *~/:) it is currently reading 70...is that the over heating condition ? is it the wwshut down ? do you have a electrical by pass for the system ? get out your wirsbo pump block book and test the pumps...the both of them will ramp and turn off an on or enable the heat source...

so what happens? that heat exchanger looks somewhat different ...to me.

i am sorry i say things the way i do...what i really mean is i do Not understand the use of a heat exchanger as a by pass with out some more pieces somewhere a circ pump would be good...minimum...

it is easy to pick the parts and pieces apart the non barrier tubing etc etc still,that does not really help you.

the tank, the pump block is connected to, with some V240 would be able to make the radiant warm....however, i would turn off the rest of the pieces and use the lowest water temp setting on the water heater and the pump block to redistribute some BTU's into the equasion.

then the water will circulate in the "Field" gradually moving the converted electrical energy into some ...(a little more enthusiastic water molecules, willing to carry on with the chore)... heating of the building....during the time it takes to get some more help on the system you currently have a few snafu's with.

Good Luck...

Singh_2

O.K.

You are by no means the only one in O.K. with geothermal and radiant. As a matter of fact Dr. Bose from Igshpa @ OSU recently built a 5000sq.ft home in stillwater with radiant for himself. I suggest your installers get over there and get educated.
As for the piping, I don't see the reasons for the mixing station, On the waterside of the HP , should have gone into a larger buffer tank for longer cycles, then you pull your radiant from that. I don't see a circulator between your water furnance and tank. The piping above tank should be done as normal with a hydronic system, that means air scoop, etc..I don't know the waterfurnance , so I like stated above , give them a call also.

Tom R.

Your installers....

> i like the wirsbo pump block *~/:) it is

> currently reading 70...is that the over heating

> condition ? is it the wwshut down ? do you have a

> electrical by pass for the system ? get out your

> wirsbo pump block book and test the pumps...the

> both of them will ramp and turn off an on or

> enable the heat source...

>

> so what happens?

> that heat exchanger looks somewhat different

> ...to me.

>

> i am sorry i say things the way i

> do...what i really mean is i do Not understand

> the use of a heat exchanger as a by pass with out

> some more pieces somewhere a circ pump would be

> good...minimum...

Tom R.

Those installers......

Sounds like the compressor stays running after the radiant shuts down, until the unit goes off on high head pressure. Most times when a manufacturer installs a manual reset it signals the need for an investigation. The obvious:The remote sensing bulb should be in the buffer tank or at least under the insulation. It's sensing 10% pipe temperature, 90% ambient. BTW, is that in an attic?

Brent_2

interesting

It looks like a synergy3 system. Are you heating the whole house with radiant from this system or just a few rooms. What size is the waterfurnace unit? The installation manual calls for a min 50 gal storage tank. Your tank looks like maybe 20 gal. The piping doesn't make much sense to me. Is this an open loop or closed loop system? What temperature are you trying to maintain coming out of the storage tank? I believe the synergy3 comes with an internal pump for the load side.
I'm also concerned about all that water in the attic.

Craig R Bergman

So many mistakes...

> I just had my house built last year. I live in

> Oklahoma and we don’t get real cold winters for

> as long as you guys up north do. I have a

> WaterFurnace geothermal unit that cools the house

> and provides the hot water for the hydro radiant

> in the slab. Unfortunately I’m the guinea pig for

> this system in Oklahoma. This is the only

> Geothermal and Radiant system these guys have in

> installed in OKC. We have a problem they just

> can’t seem to fix. When the system runs for a

> while the geothermal unit will overload and the

> red light will come on and just quit providing

> hot water to radiant. The geothermal guy added

> an “Aqua Thermostat” to the radiant system.

> Supposedly this is to stop the geothermal unit

> when the water from the radiant reaches is max

> temperature. We thought we had it all fixed

> until today I came home and noticed it was cold

> in the house. I went upstairs and low and behold

> the geothermal unit had overloaded again and shut

> off.

>

> Any ideas on how we can resolve my

> issues? Thanks Kevin

Craig R Bergman

So many mistakes...

What red light is flashing? Drain? Air Flow? High Pressure? Low Pressure? Where to begin.....

The down side of the Synergy 3 is the lack of DHW generation. So why are you trying to make DHW? The 3/4" lines between the Geo and buffer might not be large enough for the flow rates of the Geo. The buffer tank is not piped correctly or sized(sp?)right. The loop side pipes are not insulated and look too long. A hose kit provides 12 feet of pipe, allowing 6 foot max between the Geo and pump pack. (I assume this IS a closed loop because of the flex hose on the loop side)

Why is there so much water in your attic?? At the very least you need to insulate the heck out of everything!!

This unit was NOT installed by a qualified Geothermal installer. I would Contact Water Furnace and find a qualified installer. Have them look at the system, make the needed changes and hold the original contractor to account for the repairs.

Bergy

Craig R Bergman

So many mistakes...

What red light is flashing? Drain? Air Flow? High Pressure? Low Pressure? Where to begin.....

The down side of the Synergy 3 is the lack of DHW generation. So why are you trying to make DHW? The 3/4" lines between the Geo and buffer might not be large enough for the flow rates of the Geo. The buffer tank is not piped correctly or sized(sp?)right. The loop side pipes are not insulated and look too long. A hose kit provides 12 feet of pipe, allowing 6 foot max between the Geo and pump pack. (I assume this IS a closed loop because of the flex hose on the loop side)

Why is there so much water in your attic?? At the very least you need to insulate the heck out of everything!!

This unit was NOT installed by a qualified Geothermal installer. Are they IGSHPA certified? Are they Water Furnace Certified? I would Contact Water Furnace and find a qualified installer. Have them look at the system, make the needed changes and hold the original contractor to account for the repairs.

Bergy

Craig R Bergman

So many mistakes...

What red light is flashing? Drain? Air Flow? High Pressure? Low Pressure? Where to begin.....

The down side of the Synergy 3 is the lack of DHW generation. So why are you trying to make DHW? The 3/4" lines between the Geo and buffer might not be large enough for the flow rates of the Geo. The buffer tank is not piped correctly or sized(sp?)right. The loop side pipes are not insulated and look too long. A hose kit provides 12 feet of pipe, allowing 6 foot max between the Geo and pump pack. (I assume this IS a closed loop because of the flex hose on the loop side)

Why is there so much water in your attic?? At the very least you need to insulate the heck out of everything!!

This unit does not look like it was installed by a qualified Geothermal installer. Are they IGSHPA certified? Are they Water Furnace Certified? I would Contact Water Furnace and find a qualified installer. Have them look at the system, make the needed changes and hold the original contractor to account for the repairs.

Bergy

joel_19

ouch

You may get it to work but I'm sorry tosay that will probably never work to it's full potential. No one here has even discussed the ductwork. I'd have my doubts that static pres is correct with that extreemly short plenum. Sensing bulb above tank is a big no no. Where these guys the low bid? Why is all that in an unconditioned attic?? Does it go bellow freezing in your location.

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[Deleted User]

All MESSED up...

This would make a great "Don't do this
article. Sorry for the bad news. THere are too many things wrong with the system to attempt to address over the internet. You need a good hands on technician QUICK before you burn up the compressor, and it WON'T be covered by the manufacturers warranty.

Best solution I can give you is to see if you can get Bill Russell from Bill Russell Plumbing and Heating to travel the 100 miles from Tulsa to look it over and make suggestions. IF Bill doesn't understand it, he knows where to find answers...

http://www.streamside-services.com/residential.html

That is REAL unfortunate.

ME

Craig Bergman

This is the way...

> I just had my house built last year. I live in

> Oklahoma and we don’t get real cold winters for

> as long as you guys up north do. I have a

> WaterFurnace geothermal unit that cools the house

> and provides the hot water for the hydro radiant

> in the slab. Unfortunately I’m the guinea pig for

> this system in Oklahoma. This is the only

> Geothermal and Radiant system these guys have in

> installed in OKC. We have a problem they just

> can’t seem to fix. When the system runs for a

> while the geothermal unit will overload and the

> red light will come on and just quit providing

> hot water to radiant. The geothermal guy added

> an “Aqua Thermostat” to the radiant system.

> Supposedly this is to stop the geothermal unit

> when the water from the radiant reaches is max

> temperature. We thought we had it all fixed

> until today I came home and noticed it was cold

> in the house. I went upstairs and low and behold

> the geothermal unit had overloaded again and shut

> off.

>

> Any ideas on how we can resolve my

> issues? Thanks Kevin

Craig Bergman

This is the way...

Our company would plumb a synergy with a buffer tank.

I don't see how your Synergy unit will work with it's piping.

Bergy

hr

nice drawing, Bergy

I suggest folks archive or print that off. Thanks!

I'd add

If the top element is to be wired for boost or backup be sure the factory supplied T&P is installed with the probe into the tank. Extra long element T&P are available from Watts, or find a tank with the T&P in a side tap.

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

Slight change in pump specs...

The Syn 3 comes with its own onboard 220 volt 2699 equivalent, and if needed replaced, recommended to use a 120 V UP2699 to maintain proper flow rate across hydronic heating coaxial heat exchanger. (The 220 version is never readily available when you need it...)

Be prepared to bleed at the knuckles if you have to replace the onboard load pump. It's a BOOGER to get to...

THat's pretty much how we'd pipe it too, except that we would also provide a DHW preheat tank ability (ThermoMax) in our buffer tank capacity. Also avoids having to reduce 1" lines down to 3/4" tappings.

I also would rather use a solid state set point controller (tekmar or Johnson) due to their extremely accurate capability.

We started out using the bimetal thermostats that come on the electric tanks, and found them to be as much as 15 degrees F sloppy. According to our geo contractor, that's the industry norm. Of course, not having an expansion tank on the geo loop is also the industry norm with which I do NOT agree. The claim is that the PE tubing expands and contracts at a rate that is such that an expansion tank is not necessary on smaller residential systems (5 ton and less), to which I reply BUNK!

It is going to become manadatory on every system I sell, and the consumer is going to pay for it, at my behest. That, an air seperator on the geo loop, and a pressure gauge so you can see what the pressure is doing. A few hundred bucks spent now will avoid me waste thousands of dollars later.

Nice work Bergy.

ME

Unknown

tank piping

Craig: our heat pump to buffer pipng is essentially the same though we use bottom feed tanks and use the t+p port and drain connections as heat pump supply & return. as well we remove the anode (we don't feel its neccesary on a closed system with corrosion inhibitors) and replace it with a well for our OD reset controller supply sensor so the heat pump itself is reset, no mixing required.

ME: i've just revamped the way we do groundloop piping as well: air separator, stainless expansion tank and pressure guage on all our ground loops, i'm also thinking supply and return thermometers would be useful too. our heat pump providers engineers have told me expansion tanks were not needed too, even though i have witnessed up to 50psi pressure swings on systems without! i get the impression that most NA heat pump companys are a bunch of farm boys with absolutely NO hydronic knowlege. (wood boiler mfgs too!)

original poster Kevin: i'll second that your system has some serious issues that require some professional help.

Craig Bergman

You are correct...

the Synergy does have it's own circ on board. Thank you for pointing that out Mark. The original drawing was from a buffer tank with a water to water geo unit. I went back and removed the circ from the drawing so it should be correct.

Bergy

BC

Water heater element hole as inlet?

Craig - I like your schematic and it is pretty similar to what I want to do with the buffer tank for the system I'm designing. One question - Do you need a special fitting for the lower element hole? I wasn't sure if these were NPT or straight since the WH elements use a gasket.

Thanks,

Braman

Craig R Bergman

We use

a brass nipple for the connection. We use the lower element to avoid any sediment getting into the Geo's heat exchanger, and better flow rates.

Bergy

BC

Sounds good...

You don't have any problems sealing the NPT nipple to the NPSM whater heater opening?

Dave_4

I am in the same boat

Hi,

I am building a similar Synergy3 system. I was wondering what type of buffer tank you are using - Thermomax? I was looking at another buffer tank - Ergomax. Any recommendations? It seems to me that Thermomax was built for DHW solar and not geothermal space heating. What specific Thermobax tank did you recommend?

Cosmo_3

Please re-post

Hello Bergy,

was wondering if you could re-post the link to your drawing, I can't open it!!

Thanks in advance

Cosmo

Unknown

The geo guys out here spec 220v pumps to prevent a possible electrolysis issue in open well Geo systems.

so be careful if you are replacing 220v pumps with 120v pumps and if you have an open well system. the best ground might just be through your geo heat exchanger...

Craig R Bergman

Re-post

Cosmo,

I think this is the drawing you want.

Bergy