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The Lori Apartments (ME)

tom_49 Member Posts: 269

Nice looking job per usual.

I see your installing the Knight. How long have you been putting them in? How do you like it?

We will be putting in our 4th this week and probably many more after that. Nice peice of equipment.

I like the neutralizer w/ unions for replacment. What do you fill it with?

Thanks, Tom


  • As promised....

    We completed a nice apartment boilerectomy I thought I would share with you. I'll have to dig up the original system photos to show you the difference. Existing system was a 500K HydroThem cast iron modular set up with a 12 GPM Everhot coil for DHW. The system short cycled CONTINUOUSLY, and you will find out why later.

    We knew the system would be down for approximatley a week (5 working days), so we set a temporary DHW heater outside to keepo the residents clean. Couldn't do anything about heat, but they had electric ovens in their apartments to help keep the chill off.

    The HFMIC on this job was Sean Smith, an excellent mechanic. He was backed up by our service manager, Tim Reini. I even pitched in and help out a bit to make sure we got the building back into heat before the weekend.

    The reason the system was short cycling came to light after we fired up the new system. Using our captive reservoir tank, we found that there is a leak (s?) in the floor of the system. We have a pretty good idea of the proximity of the leak, but need to fine tune it with infrared thermography. Had we hooked the system up like everyone else does, with a continuous make up to the system, we'd have never known there was an issue. When we got the complaint call of no heat, no HW, we found NO PRESSURE. Upon recharging, we could feel hot water migrating towards one of the basement apartments that wasn't calling for heat. Upon entering the apartment, and interviewing the resident she said" Oh yeah, its ALWAY hot in here. In fact I NEVER turn up my thermostat..." A quick sweep of the floor with our hand held IR guns found a couple of hot spots (86 and 83 degrees F).

    I had originally estimated annual gas savings at 40% reduction. Having now discovered the leaks, the savings are going to be even MORE substantial, and will affect not only the gas bill, but also the water and sewer bill!


    Thanks to Phil Jensen of Genesee Mechanical, and his sales/support staff (Mike and Steve) for turning this one over to us. We look forward to co-oping on more of the same in the future.

    Thanks to Sean and Tim for all their hard work, and thinking on their feet. Great job guys! Not bad for four days...

    Thanks to the gang at Shamrock Sales for their support and the Amtrol 80 gallon Top Down. It seems to be working great. When I asked one of the residents if they had plenty of hot water, she stated, "Better than ever! Very stable temperatures as opposed to the continuous ever changing water temperatures from before."

    Questions gladly answered.

  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124

    very nice work...I remember the mess from before...are there 12 apts.? if so 1-80 gallon top down is sufficient? What is the output of the boiler?...kpc

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  • wondering

    Good lookin job, Mark. Wondering, due to many potenial(sp) future infloor leaks, install flat plates heating exchanger with water meter? I did this to a small condo at boiler replacment, caught one leak in kinked copper tubing so far, the lower level will not give up the floor warmth to baseboards...
  • Before pictures...


  • Tom...

    We have been installing them every since Shamrock Sales took over the line and Lochinvar introduced their condensing model. It is a very well thought out product in my opinion, and is backed by a good company.

    We still carry a LOT of other boilers, and don't tie ourselves to any one line. We like to think of ourselves as the "John Elway" of the hydronic industry. (For those unfamiliar, J.E. has just about every kind of automobile dealership under the sun...)

    The neutralizer is actually my partners (Tom Olds) conception, and it contains crushed white landscaping marble rocks.

  • Kevin,

    I use RayPak's sizing programs on all of our multifamily projects, and it has never let me down. It said we needed 80 gallons of storage and 136K worth of fire capacity. The 80 gallon TD has a coil inside capable of 200K btuH ability, and the Knight has an output of 360K at this altitude. Just to be on the safe side, we are running the tank as hot as it will go, and using dual anti scald mixing valves piped in parallel to the loads. Avoids any possibility of Legionaires disease, and gives us just a little wiggle room during peak loads.

  • tom_49
    tom_49 Member Posts: 269

    Thanks Mark.

    I may have to borrow that neutralizer idea. I just did an install w/ a different brand boiler and could not believe the cost of the Neu. kit. ( think couple nights out for dinner ).

  • Mr Bollweg...

    That is one possible option, however, we already shoe horned five pounds of sugar into a two pound bag, and in order to satisfy the end loads, it would require a humonguos FP HXer and that would require an even higher approach temperature which would take the mod con out of its condensing mode more often.

    I've discussed it with the building owner, and he said he would rather put up with the occasional resident complaint when the system goes down due to a leak as opposed to the possibility of inadvertently wasting precious natural resources.

    Bad thing is, all of his DHW distribution system is under slab, and I suspect a possible leak there as well. Will need to confirm no above ground leaks before condemnation, but initial hydrostatic test failed on the DHW distribtuion integrity this last Friday. Still have to do resident surveys and visual surveys. Did find one apartment with considerable condensation on its exterior windows during my walkaround on Friday.

    Funny how people will waste resources when they don't perceive that they are paying for it, isn't it?

  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,782
    What an amazing difference!

    Makes you wish you'd get a cut on the savings, no? :-P

    Seriously, great work!
  • Greg Gibbs
    Greg Gibbs Member Posts: 75
    It is always fun

  • Greg Gibbs
    Greg Gibbs Member Posts: 75
    It is always fun

    looking @ Sean's Magic. -Greg
  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    thanks Mark...

    is this also the job where they went w/ the low bidder 1st only to have more issues? kpc

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  • No...

    The owner of the apartments had used Genesee for many years and had a high degree of trust in their decision to utilize us to make the switch. We always bid competetively, but had virtually no bid shopping on this project.

  • Shared Savings...

    I'd LOVE to do shared savings with some of these jobs. THis one had a pay back that ws something like 7 years, and that was BEFORE we discovered the hole in the system.

    I have actually gotten tied in with a group that does shared energy savings, provided the numbers work.

    THanks for the words Constatin.

  • The boy knows his stuff...

    it is even MORE fun working with him. On his suggestion, we cut in a bronze wye strainer the other day due to
    "chunks" floating through the system.

    I'd work shoulder to shoulder with him any day... If Tom would let me :-( I miss working with the tools...

    Thanks to you and your organization Greg, for all the help and support we've gotten.

    Very much appreciated.

  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    I see we have the same ideas

    I also use a nipple and a ballvalve when using the Taco air eliminator- they are a bear to take apart after being in service for a while (Edit- I mean the Vortex style), saves time during service calls not to have to refill the system also.

    Nice job!!!

    Good luck finding the DHW leaks...... Maybe this is a situation for ultrasonic man?

  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Nice looking work ME

    What a differece a "Knight" makes !

    Do you always use the captured tank system on a job of this size ? Your right, most would fill and leave. What made this dissision ?

    Also the close tee's look farther apart then four pipe sizes with the ball valve, is it just the photo ?

    As always thanks for posting and helping us all learn.


    PS: I'll be out your way for Thanksgiving. We're going to try and ski one day. Your allset with snow right :) ?

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  • Your wish...

    is my command...


    Break a leg... er maybe not:-) Then Chris would have to do EVERYTHING, but then again, he say he does everything anyway :-)

  • bordy
    bordy Member Posts: 17

    Question about the neutralizer you installed. Does the boiler dump into the bottom of your neutralizer and as it fills up spills out the pipe toward the top?
  • steve p
    steve p Member Posts: 18

    Question about the neutralizer you installed. Does the boiler dump into the bottom of your neutralizer and as it fills up spills out the pipe toward the top?

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