Steam Heating and Piping Problem

nreit

I don't have pictures that show a better view of the boiler at this time. If you have a diagram of how the connections at the boiller should be configured it would be appreciated. Also, back to my original question, how many loops does a one pipe system need. As I understand, there is the hartford loop and the equalizer loop. The third loop is an unnecessary addition. Is this not correct?

nreit

Correct Steam Piping Configuration and Excess Water

I am wondering if you can help me with a steam heating problem. I have a steam heating system with an older boiler. I am in a dispute with a plumber I hired to fix my steam system. I have a boiler roughly in the middle of my basement. The header branches to the front of the house feeds the radiators and then drops to the boiler level and returns to the middle of the boiler. The header branches to the back of the house where it feeds the radiators and then drops to the basement floor and then rises up to the boiler where it connects to the return from the front of the house.

As I understand your diagram, there are two loops necessary for correct
operration of the steam system, the equalizer loop and the hartford loop. Althoough in my house the loops are large, the steam header and return to the rear of the house would be the hartford loop since it comes UP to the level of the boiler return. And the header and return from the front of the house would be the equalizer even though it is in combination with the radiators in the front.

The plumber added a third loop which branches off of the main head and
returns directly to the return line from the front of the house at the boiler, what I think is the equalizer. My interpretation is that this seems to be a second equalizer or a loop within the original equalizer. I beleive that this loop is completely unnecessary as there already was an equalizer. Is this correct.

I originally had the plumber to look at my system for two reasons. The
first was that the basement distribution pipes were hot and the boiler would cycle rapidly but the upstairs radiators would not get hot. The second problem was that I was removing large quantities of water from the system when I went to give a regular blowdown.

The plumber gave me what I now regard as a load of BS when he told be that the addition of the third loop would solve the problem. It solved neither. The heat distribution problem I SOLVED by fully insulating all of the distribution pipes in the basement. The problem with the water is unsolved. Last week I pulled 20 gallons of water from the system when I went to do the weekly blowdown.

First of all, what are possible solutions to the water issue. Second, am I
interpreting the diagram on your site which shows only two loops and that the addition of a third loop going from the header to the boiler return would simply be repeating the equalizer.

Unknown

pictures, my friend

We need pictures of ur system, and another thing, you hire a plumber to work on your hydronic system?

nreit

These people were Plumbing and heating contractors who were referred to me as having lots of experience with steam heating systems. I did not hire Roto Rooter. I am not sure if I can post pictures that show the whole system.

nreit

Here is a photograph of where everything comes into the boiler

nreit

Here are some photos. These show the steam header branching into two loops, the third loop recently added, the steam loop going to the back of the house at the top of the basement, and where everything comes together at the boiler. In the picture at the boiler, the return on the basement floor is from the back of the house, the return coming from the front of the house is about 1 1/2 feet above the basement floor and comes out from behind a wood wall, and the attachment from the recently added loop is coming straight down to the boiler return

Unknown

the pixs

With the given pictures, its still hard to see how the the pipes are connected to ur boiler.. Therels only one way to pipe the steam system without having any plms, the RIGHT way... If ur "plumber" changed anything, u'll have a problem, by the way, a true boiler person would install the missing discharge pipe on the relief valve.. More pictures of the boiler needed

nreit

Here is one additional picture showing the return piping coming into the boiler. I don't know if it helps. The added loop comes off of the header and is connected into the existing horizontal return line, the rusted looking pipe just to the left of the boiler. I believe that this was unnecessary as the equalizer was provided by the return line from the front piping loop. Is this correct. Secondly, I gladly plead ignorance. The configuration of discharge valves and so forth, I don't know. Is there a diagram that I can follow which shows the proper placement of those elements

Unknown

You have that drawing.

It's in the installation instructions, and the instructions aren't "optional", they are drawn the way it needs to be installed.

Noel

nreit

This is an EXISTING system with an in place boiler, not a new installation

Unknown

I re read the first post...

U did the right thing by installing the insulations on the pipe...
Why the "plumber" think u needs a 3rd loop? What's the pressure setting on ur presurtrol? Wondering if you ordered the steam books from this site so you can know more than ur "plumber"? Again, try to get the pictures of ur whole boiler so we can help ya..

Unknown

I see, it's existing.

Never mind. I stand corrected. The manufacturers instructions can't possibly apply, if it isn't new.

[sarcasm off]

Noel

kevin coppinger_4

why are you ...

taking off so much water? blow down only enogh to get the water clear...is there a water line issue? kpc

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

nreit

Originally the plumber told me my system was missing a Hartford Loop. That turns out to be untrue as the loop to the rear of the house goes down to grade level and comes up to the boiler return - a Hartford Loop as per Dan Holoman. That is my first question is that there seems to be no justification for adding a third loop.

The other issue is that I had to pull 20 gall of water from the system when I did a weekly blowdown. What would be causing the boiler to be constantly pulling in more water.

Unknown

again...

He's just a "plumber" not a steam pro....
There's is a HUGE differnence between both as I'm both of them.... Again, what's the boiler pressure setting on the presurtrol?

nreit

I am having to remove all the water so that the static water level is in the middle of the sight glass at the correct level. The 20 gallons of extra water was before any new water entered the system

Long Beach Ed

Call us whatever you wish...

... our license says Master Plumber, which is what you have to be in New York City to work on a steam system that has a feed pipe connected to city water. We happen to know about steam and do lots of steam work. Many plumbers knopw jack about steam.

Anyway, your Hartford loop can't stretch halfway across the basement. That woun't cut it. The purpose of the loop is twofold. It protects the boiler from losing all its water if a return pipe leaks and it assists in equalizing pressure to keep the boiler pressure from pushing all the water out of the bottom of the boiler, through the returns and up into the ends of the mains.

Now I can't really see your piping, but the above paragraph may address your concern that the plumber gave you something you didn't need.

You say you are draining 20 gallons of water from your boiler. No Hartford loop will cause a boiler to overfill by 20 gallons. Do you mean that you have to drain 20 gallons to get the water level to where it should be in the sight glass?

If yes, then how is the water getting there? Either the feed valve is not turning off, the automatic feeder is installed wrong or malfunctioning or a tankless coil for heating water inside the boiler is leaking. The return may be clogged causing a feeder to overdo it. You're not peeing in the radiator vents at night, are you?

Simple as that... The insulation is great and very neat. Now lets see the piping at the bottom of the boiler and lets see how high that horozontal header pipe is from the water line and we can be more specific.

Long Beach Ed ---
Call us Steam Heating Plumbers?
Steamfitters?
Vapor engineers?
Doctors of Environmental Comfort?
Just dont call us late for dinner.

nreit

First of all the piping loops are long. The loop to the back of the house is about 15 feet from the boiler and the loop to the front of the house is about 5 feet from the boiler measured horizontally. However it seem to me that the horizontal distance would have no impact whatsoever. Hydraulic head is hydraulic head whether2 miles away or 2 feet away. The return loop would still have say 1 foot of water exerting pressure on the boiler. Or is this wrong.

Charlie from wmass

I am a plumbing and heating contractor with a very good ruputation for working on Hydronic systems. Being a plumber daoe snot make me unable to work on steam. The contractor installed a hartford loop which is called for your old system simply did not have one before.

Long Beach Ed

Did...

Did you read the replies?

EBEBRATT-Ed

The Hartford loop must BE AT the boiler not some distance away. Every steam boiler should have a Hartford loop. Some of the older ones did not. The equalizer line and the hartford loop done correctly is one package.

Everyone here is happy to help but we need more information. More pictures.


ED

LarryC

Lost Art of Steam Heating

nreit,

Go to the top of the webpage and order LAOSH. More information than you may want to know about steam systems. If you read it, you will see where Dan recommends that you DO NOT give water a running start to bang into something. That is one reason why Hartford loops are placed at the boiler. Also the hydraulic head you are talking about is true when you are dealing with a STATIC system. Once the water starts moving, piping friction or headloss can make a big difference in pressure at different locations.

It sounds like you may have a few issues. The most expensive one, if not addressed soon, is water leakage into your system. If fresh water is leaking into your boiler system, the boiler may have a very short life. New water carries dissolved oxygen, which will rust your system into a premature death. Isolate the water fill valves and see if the sight glass level still increases over a day or two.

If it does, AND you have a domestic hot water heating coil built into the boiler, you might have a leaking coil. That needs to be fixed soon.

If the sight glass level does not increase after isolating the water fill valves, you probably have a leaking fill valve. You can work around that by manually filling your system as necessary.

If the sightglass level DROPS after a few days, you may have leaks from piping, faulty air vents, or the boiler itself.


The steam mains heating up, but no heat into the radiators is usually a air venting problem. Do you have appropriate sized vents on your mains? Are they functional? The new insulation is a good step towards increasing the efficiency of your system.

What is the steam pressure of the system when it running and when it shuts off? Your system description sounds like the typical small house system, which means the turn on pressure should be about a 1/2 psi and turn off pressure should be about 1 & 1/2 psi.

Get the book, learn, and enjoy the comfort that a well tuned and properly functioning steam system provides.

Good Luck,

Larry C

nreit

Let me see if I can describe my system better:

The boiler sits on the basement floor about 1/3 of the basement length from the front wall. The house was built in 1920 and the boiler is old. The steam header branches into two piping loops that are 2" dia pipe. The front loop header extends about 8 feet horizontally from the boiler where it feeds the radiators in the front of the house. It then drops into a 45 run of 1 " pipe and then runs for the remaining distance horizontally as it returns to the boiler about 1'+ off the basement floor.

The second loop also has a 2" trunk that serves the back of the house and extends about 20' + from the boiler. After feeding the radiators it drops directly to the basement floor with 1" pipe and then runs horizontally back to the boiler. This return comes UP to join with the return from the front of the house.

The third loop , recently added, comesoff the main header and returns directly to the return from the front of the house.

First of all, was there any reason to add the third loop and if so what. Secondly, I am trying to determine if I have piping problems, boiler problems or what. Keep in mind, the system works now and there are no visible leaks .

JDUB

Did you eat lead chips?

nreit- Did you eat lead paint chips for breakfast when you were a kid? Look at the replies from the pros you already got and post some more pictures...