Vito plus ? indirect

ALH_4

Crown has nice horizontal stainless tanks in 40 and 53 gallon models that are a little more reasonably priced.

<a href="http://www.crownboiler.com/products/indirect/mega_stor.asp"target="_blank">Crown Mega Stor</a>

-Andrew

<i>EDIT: From experience, for optimum performance (faster recovery) I would install a <a href="http://www.viessmann.ca/web/canada/ca_publish.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/docVitodens-Secondary-DHW-Switch-ii/$FILE/Vitodens-Secondary-DHW-Switch-ii.pdf"target="_blank">Secondary DHW Pump</a> with the horizontal Crown tanks. The internal pump is fine with the vertical tanks. The coil is different in the horizontal tanks.</i>

Uni R_2

Alt. 40g indirect for a 6-24

I got a quote for a Vitodens 6-24 install (along with new gas piping and removal of an oil boiler and 2 inside tanks) that didn’t shock the heck out me. I also had the small Viessmann horizontal tank priced as an optional extra. It did shock the &^%$ out of me! Yes, that tank has got too be the most outstanding piece of hydronic equipment a person could ever have in their house. I love the design. The domestic feeds are uncompromised; it is outstanding in every way and I truly wish I could afford or justify spending more on it than a 2 week 4 star tropical vacation for 2 but that won’t fly past my more sensible better half. I still want to consider the Vito - so what would be a good alternative in the 40 gallon range? Would a Vaughn top performer plus be a good match with a Vito? It certainly looks like a durable design. The tank will be in a spot that is 54” up to the bottom of the joists (inside the envelope), so lower is better.

Constantin

How about...

... the Triangle Tube Smart series?

While they may not be made of the same stainless steel nor offer a viewport/cleanout, etc. they have some of the best recovery rates with low-temp boiler water. My understanding is that they're comparatively inexpensive to boot (but how would I know).

However, if stainless prices remain at ~$4.50/lb no tank with a good grade of stainless on the inside is going to be cheap.

DanHolohan

I received this information

from a person from Viessmann, who has asked me to post it:

"Please advise the questioner to ask a Viessmann sales office about the advisability of mating our modcon low temp boiler to another tank. North American tank manufacturers build lower cost tanks by using less material. They save the most money by shrinking the heat exchanger coils. I field no end of trouble calls because the NA tanks just do not perform as advertised when powered by the relatively low maximum supply temp available from the Vitodens. The Vitocels on the other hand are laid out to perform with a delta T of only
15 degrees so they can be easily and quickly serviced by the Vitodens. There are others on the Wall who understand this.

ALH_4

uncompromising quality

Honestly, I feel this is an insult to the design skills of whomever is designing this system. Of course, I assume someone qualified and experienced is designing this system, and that the original poster's question was related to finding the best match for his system available that was priced a little lower. Head loss is head loss, and with a couple exceptions, nearly any North American manufacturer's tank can be made to work using the correct equipment. And, if my memory is correct, I believe the Crown/Burnham tanks are actually manufactured in Denmark. (please correct me if I am wrong on this)

There is incredibly little residual head left (~2ft) when using the internal Vitodens pump for optimum DHW production with an 8-32.

Selling Viessmann equipment is always an "up-sell". Many times the customer has another quote in their hands for a basic cast iron boiler or perhaps a competing condensing boiler. Selling the customer on the benefits and features of the Vitodens was possible in many circumstances. People could see the value and potential payback from buying a higher quality or higher efficiency boiler. However when I would turn and show them the $3000 tank in the corner, most would cringe. In my opinion, if every Vitodens had to be sold with a Vitocell, it would kill many Vitodens sales. I, and my employer, always felt that the boiler was the most important battle to fight. If a Vitocell was not in the cards, then a high quality stainless steel indirect from a different manufacturer was a minor compromise. Any good indirect manufacturer will supply head loss curves for their coils. Crown/Burnham does this. Other North American manufacturer's do this.

Viessmann equipment is some of the best in the world. Vitocells are extremely nice tanks. They are worth the money. But, given a fixed budget, rather than sell an ECD with a Vitocell, I would prefer to sell a Vitodens and a Mega Stor, even if it requires an additional 15-58 and a small relay.

Ok I will get off my soap box......

A sincere thank you to Viessmann for providing the highest quality equipment available. Someone has to be the best, and, in my opinion, Viessmann is that company.

-Andrew

Mike T., Swampeast MO

When it comes to DHW, the Vitodens really needs an indirect with high surface area and low head loss in the heat exchanger.

For similar storage capacity, the indirects commonly available here come up short in both measures. HX area is relatively small requiring higher supply temperature with a relatively high rate of flow. Higher head loss creates serious complications with the Vitodens 6-24 or 8-32 where the built-in circulator moves about 6 gpm with extremely low head loss--think inches...

To get surface area and head loss similar to the 40-gallon Viessmann with more common indirects, you're almost certain to need significantly larger than 40-gallon. If you use a common indirect of similar storage capacity your peak demand ability will be greatly reduced due to an inability to transfer the FULL output of the boiler to the indirect.

If budget at all allows, I would suggest the stainless steel, 40-gallon, horizontal Viessmann indirect. It should last for generations.

GW

system and quality

You can install whatever water heater your heart desires, I’m not sure how many people here will send you hate mail if you decide to go cheap. Viessmann water heaters are simply “high quality”, and there is no secret that the units are more costly than cheap US made heaters. In today’s world, just like days of yester, we all have our own ideas what the word “quality” means. I personally have a deep appreciation for certain things in life, while other things have little value to me (had a high school kid paint my house with a couple of his friends… could have been better if you get my drift). However my heating system is tops; all radiant with viola and vitocell, the works. Some things we just pay more for. When I raced dirt bikes I paid triple for race gas. When we need another vehicle for my business I buy new because for just a little bit more every month I can be better assured that my 8 guys will get to the jobs without glitch. I’ll spend thousands more in the near future for extra bore holes (geothermal system for my new building), when fewer holes could transfer the same energy if we drill deeper (fewer holes), yet I want small pumps (I will never recoup this, I just want the best system) and therefore lesser electricity consumption.

So, pick your poison and move on my good man. I know when I cut corners, like cheap gas in a race bike, I get dirt all over my all-American mug before I reach the first turn.

Gary


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GW

insulted

I'm not sure why you take offence; have you any clue what percentage of heating guys will botch this job if they go with a cheap tank?

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jp_2

prim/sec

don't you use primary secondary piping to fix headloss problems?

ALH_4

well

I guess it was just where North American was associated with cheap and low quality. And it's not as if everything except a Vitocell is cheap. Yes, a few are cheap or of poor design, and really never should be used with any boiler in my opinion.

Maybe I fired that last post off too quickly. ;-)

-Andrew

Chip_8

I'll speak from experience. I installed a 8-32 with a cheap tank and the Vitodens just constantly short cycled and never satisfied the DHW. In turn the space heating never came on. Lets just say that WE ended up changing it out to a vitocell. lesson learned.

Uni R_2

p/s

jp, for DHW the Vito has a 3 way valve and diverts the return to be from the water heater (as opposed to the heating system if piped direct or the low loss header if it is p/s). The low less header is a p/s connection. So effectively just the internal variable speed circ is available and it is done primary parallel.

Andrew kindly pointed out that you can pipe in a secondary circ to increase the flow to overcome the head of the tanks with restrictive HX surfaces. I'd prefer not to have to do this, but would hate to tax the the internal circulator because it's one of the bigger concerns I'd have owning a Vito. If the 3-way fails, it's an expensive service call. With a boiler with separate circs, I would just put in a new circ. That's well within my limits and skills. Anyway, I'd want a solution that is easy on the primary circ because it is built-in, variable and undoubtedly quite expensive if it dies.

Some, as Constantin pointed out, don't have high headlosses. The Triangle Tube tank in tank design is like this. W-M sells them as their Gold and Ultra tanks. They are nice.

I'm not sure if the Vaughn Top Performer would be a good match. As Mr Milne would point out the older style tank was terrible at heat transfer. I wonder if anyone has experience with the newer design. There isn't much info online about them that would help see if they'd be a cheaper alternative.

Viessmann (thanks Dan) and others have pointed out the superiority of the Viessmann tank. I'm in complete agreement. I don't mind paying for quality and I've hung around here for years and have a strong interest in hydronics. I want a system that keeps my family warm and comfortable but makes me feel good to look at it while its doing its job - the engine room of my castle. My kids are young, my house isn't paid off and I'm not expecting any inheritances. That water heater is expensive!

Andrew mentioned this as a $3K option. If it were, I wouldn't even be considering a less expensive option! That's a good price in my books!!!

The Viessmann tank leaks heat at the equivalent rate of a 50 watt light-bulb over the summer. That's testimony to its superior insulation and quality of construction. It is without compromise, but it is only a water heater. It will allow me to save money verses using an electric tank that's maybe 4 years old. But then again, any good tank will save me about the same amount of money. It's probably in the range of $200 - $400 per year. The Viessmann would save money over its rivals by maybe only leaking $20 tops a year over the course of the non-heating months. Other good tanks might be 2 or 3x worse. That's not even pizza money. For this extra savings and the convenience of better plug and play with a Vito, would you part with $2K extra that might be better spent on your kid's education?

My wife would point out to all of us, that it's only a water heater and she's right. But I'm not ruling anything out. Heck, I'm looking at a Vito when I was absolutely convinced that I wanted an Ultra and will miss certain things that it can do should I get a Vito instead.

Uni R_2

Mismatched Tank

What was it, if you don't mind me asking? You won't be badmouthing a manufacturer because it's not a reflection of poor quality on anyone's product. Its just a sign of a poor matching of 2 products. The Vito can't move enough water to make it heat water - it's that simple. Many boilers would have had great results with it.

I'd like to know what isn't a good match in case it's what gets offered as an alternative.

heatboy

You should probably............

.....purchase the Vitodens with a system approach in mind. It's the only way I offer it. The boiler is designed to work at it's ultimate efficiency with the 300 tank. Bite the bullet and use the 300. You won't be sorry.

The Crown Mega-Stor is a fine tank and I offer them, but not with a Vitodens.

hb

heatboy

You should probably............

.....purchase the Vitodens with a system approach in mind. It's the only way I offer it. The boiler is designed to work at it's ultimate efficiency with the 300 tank. Bite the bullet and use the 300. You won't be sorry.

The Crown Mega-Stor is a fine tank and I offer them, but not with a Vitodens.

hb

Ron Gillen

Is the Vito 100 not available in the States. If it is, it's about half the price of the 300. My old direct fired water heater lasted 26 years with a burner cookin it. I figure the 100 will outlast me.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

To my knowledge the Vitodens 200 series are the only ones currently available in the US. The 100 series is supposed to be available fairly soon though. The max output range of the 100 [seems] similar to the 200 but with some compromises made to the "uncompromising" 200 series to reduce cost.

There is a Vitodens 300 series, but it only seems available in Europe. If I remember correctly, it has a built in expansion tank and [might] be available in smaller output sizes.

The 300 series mentioned above is for the Vitocell indirects. The 300 series are all stainless (tank and HX). The 100 series indirects are "glass lined" steel (or whatever Viessmann calls it) with stainless steel HX.

Ron Gillen

Sorry for the confusion Mike. My comments were regarding a more economical "Vitocell"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sorry Ron. I wasn't sure.

While they're all certainly expensive, the 42-gallon 300 series horizontal does seem to be the best value from both the 100 and 300 series. Compared to the "glass-lined" 42-gallon horizontal, cost premium is quite small. The stainless models don't have a sacrificial annode to replace to prevent tank corrosion.