Service or Sell

John L

has been promoted vigorously by the gurus who learned that it is more profitable to teach the stuff than service and install it, hence the proliferation of gurus who tout their "prowess" and past succeses thru books, tapes, seminars and boot camps. Remember the old adage "follow the money" and this thread of thought. The gurus tout tech selling because some owners are greedy and see a supposedly bigger profit from a tech's sale than from a salesman (p.s. I am one of the latter and proud of it). The tech gets a commision and mostly a lower starting pay and "makes more by selling more", and the base pay does not move. The guru latches(leeches) onto the owner thru "on going consultancy fees" and therefore has to show the owner the benefit of this scheme. The guru builds an ongoing income thru this system that is probably better than when they worked the tools. They write the books and the articles and the the tapes etc. as another source of income , not a bad gig in the long run. Some techs are not comfortable sellingbut are or feel pressured to do so. I know of a couple whose life was made difficult when they could not produce sales. There are some techs who can service , install ,repair and sell, basically do it all, but this industry does not have one of that type in every company because if that was the case the average size and revenue of each company would be a lot bigger than it is. Service techs are specialist and some are uncomfortable in the sales arena. The vast majority are experienced and hardworking professionals. Sales people are similar and in my experience the best fit for a company is to get the best from both disciplines and develop their skills to the max. What is lost in the shiffle sometimes is what is best for the customer.
John L

Unknown

What is your policy?

I am getting a lot of service techs through my classes who tell me they are under pressure to condemn equipment and sell them a new furnace or boiler. This is based on a number of factors one of which is that all the old stuff is very inefficent and should all be replaced. Quote "any thing older than 10 years should be replaced".

I am curious is this the trend that we are following or am I just getting to old and missing something.

Here is another quote "that powerpile stuff is dangerous and makes alot of Carbon Monoxide and needs to be replaced".

I am sure this will get a stir from some of you, quote "steam systems should all be removed and replced with forced hot water".

One very large company here in Rhode Island is rewarding thier techs on how many replacements they recommend a month.

I being more a service tech than an installer have a problem with this but wonder if this is the trend?

Tombig_5

If it ain't broke...

sell 'em a new one anyway! This practice has been going on for years.

I'm an installer and mostly only service what I install. I still don't recommend replacements unless it's in the best interest of the customer, not my pocketbook. Rewarding service techs for replacement recommendations that turn into sales is like giving traffic cops bonuses based on how many tickets they write.

brucewo1b

Well certainly not the trend

where I work, and ten years is not that old in my book, I have no idea where that powerpile comment comes from, keep all the steam going I can, I know of companies that do give rewards to techs for getting installs but it bothers me when its used to just get more money out of the customer if their equipment isn't gone beyond reasonable repair.

Cosmo_3

We should all be aware

I always give the homeowner the option, however never try to make them replace it. I just give them the facts. The other extreme is guys who like to neglect to tell the customer that a replacement/ and or re-pipe will make the system more trouble free, and will pay for itself in eliminating constant service calls for equipment that was just plain installed incorrectly.

For those who like to condemn 10 year old cast iron boilers, just beware that you never know when it might be some news company video taping the whole thing. I remember watching one of those videos, I cringe when I see that because it not only hurts that particular sleezy contractor, but our trade as a whole.

To all new tradesmen... keep your noses clean, tell the customer the facts and let them make their own decision. As much as our job entails salesmanship, I can never bring myself to lying to a customer just because I want the quick buck. History shows that no bad deed goes unpunished....eventually.





Cosmo

Empire_2

COsmo

You said it all.....:-)

Mike T.

Al Corelli

If you lie to a customer...

If you lie to a customer, you degrade the integrity of the trade, even if you do not get caught.

There is enough work out there fixing servicable systems AND replacing those that have reached the end of their service life. Pushing someone to do something that is obviously just a sales pitch (or perceived as one), is very wrong.

Most times I've seen, customers appreciate the effort to keep an older system going (safely)while they save up for new, more efficient equipment.

i learned this as a child: Lying ain't good.

Be honest with your customer, and you will have all his friends and family as customers.

John R. Hall

Tim

I go against the conventional HVAC grain and oppose encouraging techs to sell equipment. That opens the doors to problems like pressure on the homeowner and a tech that needs to make the mortgage payment so he or she pads their income from commission on equipment sales. I AM in favor of showing customers options if they are considering replacement for reasons of age or efficiency. Then the tech's company can send out the boss or sales person to do the actual sales presentations.

There are a lot of so-called "experts" in the HVAC trade who tout the importance of technican selling. Bullcrap. If you are an owner and a tech without a sales staff then you are the exception. Otherwise, don't put the screws to the customer when all they really need is repair or maintenance.

My two cents -- no charge.

Mitch_6

Repair or replace

Steam systems I like to keep, if a boiler is needed I install a new steam boiler, I only convert to FHW or Hydro if it is part of a renovation project.

I often make basic repairs on most equipment, however I often see boilers over 20 years old that are pretty scary, no safety's things tied together with smoke pipe wire. Some were coal then gas then oil then back to gas.

Funny thing is the worst boilers I see are oil those guys will keep anything running.

I try to be fair with the H.O. but also realise I am responsible for the equipments operation after I touch it.

Some H.O's just cannot afford new equipment if I can keep it going I do if not I shut it down and let them deal with the gas company or someone who wants the liability hanging over there head.

Mitch S.

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Empire_2

Customers

I usually tell the customer, "If the equipment will not kill you or scare the crap out of you I will keep er running" unless they want options for replacement. I do however state the possible fuel savings with new equipment but by no means do I tell them that it has to be done. Money is usually the #1 issue.

Mike T.

John Mills_5

common here

among the consolidators. The locally owned businesses don't do it. Pretty sad. I've heard that with a couple of the consolidators pressue is pretty strong to sell, sell, sell and that's on the techs, not the salespeople.

My co-workers are very picky about that. They'll call for 2nd opinion from a fellow tech if they aren't 100% sure something needs to be condemned.

Dale

when to replace

Good topic Timmie, It's true we can fix just about anything. What's best for the particular customer is the key. I think if the repair will cost over 1/3 the price of new it's time to go new. We don't sell equipment so we are trusted. If we see rusted vent pipe, 4 new burners needed, and we are there because the blower is shot we'll advise a new furnace, because that's best for the customer. Landlords however, the ones that own the furnace or boiler but who don't pay the heat are the ones that seem to want the junk fixed. So, who's the customer, the fuel payer or the landlord? We tell all customers asking about new DC type furnaces to get the 10yr. parts and labor warranty because of the fix/repair cost split.

joel_19

policy

Can repairing it open us up to any potential liability ?? is it remotely dangerous??? then we recomend replacement and the Tecs can make the call .

We are in Lawsuitachussettes so that is the biggest thing right there. we don't have any kind of age cut off though.

We will recomend replacement on anything old and inefficent but if they want it fixed then so be it.

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Darrell

Sometimes, at the kitchen table level where the bills get paid, efficiency is over-rated. If a working and safe system is kicking along at 80-85% and everybody is comfortable and committed to maintenance that is one thing. To suggest, or worse, pressure an owner to move up to 90-95% and have to make payments through a Visa or a second mortgage for 5-10% of efficiency is probably never going to pay for itself. It will, however,look good on the sales end, and heck, the sales guy will probably get a new thermos or coffee cup from the local rep for Christmas! Combustion efficiency and Checkbook efficiency, (economy), are not always the same thing.

bill_71

one place i worked for had a sales lead commission setup.......poorly paid techs with the "ability to make 75 g's a year, the fine print "with the right commissions". their best tech couldn't fix much and had nice shiny tools, but apparently he sold a whole lot of new equipment because what he couldn't fix was "unrepairable". i'm ashamed that i stuck with that company for just under two years. just under two years too long........

Unknown

John L, it is interesting

to note that at many of the trade shows and conventions most of the training going on has something to do with profit. Years ago when I attended those shows and did some teaching almost 80% of what was being taught was technical know how on installation or service. I guess it says something about where we are going.

KAG

Oh like the plasma T.V.?

Tony_23

Exactly

Or the $6k 4-wheeler.

Baffles me how someone can justify these things and their payments while forking over 3-400 a month for fuel and complaining.

tim smith

sell or repair

We have always been a repair oriented company, no commisions just do what makes the equipment safe and reliable. If it is in the best interest of the customer, then yes, replace. We just repaired an old atmospheric conversion burner last night that was burning at 3000 ppm CO because someone had removed the spreader plate off the top of the burner tube and it was laying in the firebox. Put back on Analyzed and running ok now. My tech told me it was kind of a strange looking flame!!!

Darrell

True enough...and they don't like to pay the service guy either! But, that doesn't justify dishonest sales tactics.

Steamhead (in transit)

There was a company in the DC area

called Warner, that did a lot of this, was caught and put out of business. Enough said.

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GW

not good

I agree that lying isn't good, but bet your bippie if I see a dilapidated piece of junk, I say there's too much liability and they need to "call someone else; if you want a price to upgrade to a new one I'm happy to do so". There is some real pathetic garbage out there, and I refuse to be the last guy that touched it. My pitch usually involves several price ranges, from basic fix to a repipe (most installers do a lame job piping a boiler, we charge close to a coupla g for a basic steam repipe), or lastly a complete replacement.

Are you techs worried about getting flack for not being the hero and fixing everything you come across? Ever ask when the last time the ho had the unit serviced (not that the answer really matters, even if it is the truth)? How many ho out there let the heating system go "out of sight/out of mind" until it drops? Let me ask you heating pros a ridiculous but somewhat reasonable question: If you hadn't been to the dentist in 10 years and your doc says you have 2500 worth of work to do on your teeth, how much of a moron would you be if you started barking at the good doctor because "now you have to spend some real money". That's what I feel when I see some of the garbage out there, because we do have customers that think we can just snap our fingers and make it all better. With courtesy I look them in the eye and share with them my professional opinion. To this day I have never bound an old lady in a head lock.

I feel like a bag of hot air... that being said if the unit is in good shape, no rust, no cob-job stuff, I'd be thrilled to make the repair and hope the ho will call when the thing falls into big repair costs.

I'd hate to be the poor sap that gets stiffed on a sting operation when the unit is fine. But then again every situation is just a tad different, so let's try to keep that in mind!

I think it's a shame for our trade that there are techs who limp some of this garbage along. Why not be a person looking out for the ho best interests and at least put the price on the table for a replacement; let them decide? Why do you and I have the best heating systems in the world, and our customers have to live with yucky stuff? Where is the line in the sand? Is the line the same for you than it is for me? I bet the line shimmies back and forth, and I sleep just fine at night.

Timmie, you're the man and I respect you tons. I don't know what company you're referring to but I have a hunch (not that I know my "hunch" anyway). I'd just be a little surprised if the sales pitch is as rough as you described. But in today's world, anything goes I guess.


Gary Wilson


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GW

a tech and a sales person


I'm not convinced the tech is always right.

When you go to the car dealership, and you ask for a price on a new car, would you be surprised if the sales man said you don't need a new car? Another one of my stupid points.

Sales people tend to sell, and get compensated accordingly. Technicians tend to fix, and they too get paid accordingly.

Because heating is not on everyone's mind like the auto industry, people don't generally knock on your office door every day looking for replacement proposals. Isn't that what sales people do, try to make a sale? Does it grate you, the fix it person, (not you Darrell, just people in general), that the sales person has no problems offering the new system, but you have a moral objection because you have been taught to "fix it"? Is it also true that, to my knowledge, every citizen in this country has a right to seek other contractors to attain their opinion? Can a ho go buy electric heaters and take a couple of days to slow the process down and make his/her best decision? Oh, the ho doesn't have electric heaters kicking around in their closet? Is that my fault or yours?

I'm sure I'll get banned from list someday; I'm bent on trying to infuse some new thinking into our trade. I love this industry, and hope it will bless me with adequate wealth some day.

Gary Wilson


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GW

landlords

You're pretty brave working for landlords. They've been the bane of my business for years. Just when i think I can invent a new policy to keep one step ahead of them, I get surprised one more time. Out of the area landlord? Please call elsewhere! Someday i'll have a clever online shopping cart with a bucket full of fine print. Once I'm there, i'll start dealing with this crowd again.

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