Steamhead - major hammering

tim smith

The issue before was with mercury bulb type controls, this is a micro switch type, not as critical but I still orient them the same as with the mercury type just because.

TCR_2

Replaced boiler & now major problem

My new Peerless EC/T3 steam boiler was running great but now I have major water hammer. I posted photos last week and some of the suggestions/improvements have been done:

1) recleaned/skimmed the boiler (lots of crud came out and I put 1 cup of 8-Way treatment in when I refilled)
2)installed a Gorton #1 valve on each return just before they drop down to the boiler. Tappings for vents were already here so I used them.
3)insulated the near-boiler pipes and started insulating the wet returns.

Soon after I turned on the boiler the water level dropped from the middle of the glass to the very bottom and activeated the LWCO & auto fill. Really bad water hammer occured which has never been a problem with this system.

Afer the boiler cooled down the water level was up at 3/4 on the site glass. When more heat was called it soon dropped to the very bottom. All that water is going somewhere and my guess is that it is backing up into the wet returns? There is lots of gurgling noise from the system.

I looked through the Steam Problems section and there appear to be many possible causes. I loaned my Pocket full of Steam book to my boiler guy who will hopefully get here soon thus I do not have my "stream bible". What is/are the likely causes so that he and I can get the system working properly again without wasting hours on the wrong things.

As always your help is very much appreciated.

TR

kevin coppinger_4

do you have....

some pict. of the install...it would be helpful to everyone...kpc

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TCR_2

Photos

Pics were posted last week under topic "Peerless ECT3 install photos.

Should I repost those pics?

TR

brucewo1b

tcr

or post a link to that thread

TCR_2

piping photos

here are the piping photos...

The vent photo is before I added Gorton #1 vents on 6" nipples at the top each return.

The glass hi-low photo has strings I tied at the top before boiler built up any heat and at the bottom just before the LWCO activated.

Here is a timeline from this morning:

7:16 turned boiler on, water at top "string", 0 psi.

7:22 water about middle of glass, 1/2 psi.

7:23 water at 1/4, 1 psi.

7:24 water back up at 3/4, 0 psi.

7:26 water near bottom of glass, 1/2 psi, partial heat in rads.

7:31 water at bottom, LWCO acitvated, 1 psi.

Power was shut off at this point to avoid autofeed adding more water.

7:34 water back at top "string".

Any suggestions on what could cause this? I removed the Gorton vents and replaced the original plug and old vent but there was no change. My guess is that water is being pushed (or pulled?) back up into the returns. Is this possible?

Thanks.
TR

EBEBRATT-Ed

If I am looking at this right your hartford loop connection is way to low. Measure from the floor to the bottom of the gage glass and then measure fro the floor to the bottom of the hartford loop nipple. Follow the boiler manufacturers instructions for hartford loop height.


ED

The Wire Nut

Little piggies...

The "pig-tail" that connects your pressertrol to the Low-Water Cutoff, needs to be rotated 90 degrees so that the loop faces front-to-back. This is to prevent the movement of the pig-tail, as it expands from the heat, from moving the control off the horizontal plain. That movement could effect the accuracy of the control...

Or is the control shown immune to that issue?

Alex

TCR_2

H. Loop measurements

Ed,

From the floor to the bottom of the glass is 28.5"

From the floor to the bottom of the short horizontal nipple connected to the H. Loop is 20.5"

I'll pull out the manual and let you know.

Thanks.

Unknown

That particular pressuretrol

has no mercury , so the orientation of the pigtail is OK .

The Hartford Loop is a little low , but not a critical point because you have 2 dry returns .

Tcr , I'm assuming the boiler is sized right for your home . Where the 2 steam mains turn back to the boiler , are 2 inch by 1 inch cast ells used ? Can you take some pics where the main gets reduced and becomes the dry returns ? One time we replaced a steamer and the 2 by 1 ell was almost totally clogged with crud . Same symptoms you describe . But this is very rare .

But first step is to find out if the boiler is sized right .

TCR_2

answers & more photos

Ron,

I am 99% sure the boiler is correctly sized. I don't have the numbers handy but this is a small bugalow with 7 radiators. I believe we are well below the capacity of this 3 section Peerless.

Maybe I am confused but I thought my returns were called "wet returns". Don't they carry the condensate back to the boiler and leave the mains dry? In the attached photos the mains are insulated with the fancy white fibergalss covers. The returns are covered in kraft faced paper.

The odd thing is that the system worked fine (no hammering) before I cleaned the boiler and insulated the near-boiler piping.

kevin coppinger_4

returns don't...

become wet until they dip below the water line of the boiler....kpc

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STEVE PAUL_3

relief valve

Just as an aside, having nothing to do with the water hammer situation, I think that the orientation of the relief valve should be changed. The code requires the relief valve on boilers to be in the upright position to avoid getting sediment and boiler crud on the valve seat. NOT TRYING TO BE PICKY.

Unknown

Return pipes

We refer to wet returns as pipes holding condensate all the time - they are lower than the boiler water line .

Dry returns are what you have - they're usually dry most of the time .

Quick check of the EC specs show an output of 283 to 446 sq. ft. of steam - depending on which nozzle size is in the oil burner . Since the problems coincided with insulating the pipes ( and that's always a great idea regardless ) , you might have inadvertantly oversized the output of the boiler for your home . My guess is you'll need to lower the nozzle output to match the new load of the house . But to be totally sure you really need to measure the radiators if you haven't done it already .

Christian Egli_2

I'm looking at pipes here, and the header connections

All your symptoms scream of entrained water leaving with the steam. A good header design prevents that, and more precisely, I think there are a few details that don't give your header the optimal function.

First, check to make sure everything slopes downwards, if not, it's something to correct. Check pipe diameter and rise compared to instruction manual.

Second, the take off on your header is horizontal, meaning water will flow there as well as steam. That's no good.

Third, there is a step up in your header to main connection which creates puddles of unboiled water. That's no good.

Fourth, the mains are fed with a bullhead. That's not good either, but where it is in your system, it should be OK. Was it like that originally?

And fifth, the easy solution to all this is to add an extra header drain. Bust the step up elbow, replace it with a tee, lead a downsloping header drain back down to the boiler inlet where you can easily connect into the plugged drain hole; move the drain hole on step back by adding a tee.

Sixth, all banging should go away, I hope. I don't think you have a venting problem, you seem to have addressed boiler water issues, and you're not operating at high enough pressures to make all your water back out and you don't have wet returns to worry about with a Hartford loop anyways.

See attached sketch. Good luck.

gerry gill

clean the boiler again...

your symptoms sound like dirty water..don't put any treatment in it..drain the boiler..fill, to top, drain, skim,..fill with just water..if you put something in it, do it afterwards..thats after its running well again..use just 1/4 ounce of tsp to five gallons of water..this will keep your ph up..

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ttekushan_3

wet steam

In using the 8-way, I have this problem temporarily every single time I initialize it into the boiler water.

This is precisely why I use it.

This product disengages impurities from all the heat transfer surfaces, and it winds up on the water's surface. Skimming at this point is not what's called for. Surface blow-off is whats necessary now.

This must be done with a valve in the skim port piped to the floor, and a decent hose dropped into a drain. [Looking at your photos, the pressure relief valve can serve this purpuse. Hose it to the drain, Gently prop open the relief valve. Easy.] THIS is HOT stuff. You will have a blast of aeriated water coming out of there at first. You can partially or fully open the valve and let the system cycle.

At first I shut off the water feed and let it shut down on low water. It'll start again when the water returns. At some point it won't start again since there's no more water to return; restore the auto feeder to its operating condition or add water manually s-l-o-w-l-y. You're on the home stretch. The boiler shouldn't shut off on low water anymore.

When the skim port blows only steam (you can really hear the difference) you're done. You may want to do another surface blowdown in a few weeks.

Its not really difficult at all. Especially considering what you've gone through already. When this process is done leave only enough 8 Way in there to make the water a very pale lavender color. Too much is too much. From your pictures, the chemical concentration looks right. You will find now that the steam is extraordinarily dry. A good portion of your system balance and noise problems will disappear. Perhaps all of them. Yes, I've seen it.

Since I only work in the descaling-cleaning-tuning-venting-balancing end of things, I rarely work with a new boiler. If older systems have this much stuff occluded in them, think of how how many oily substances are remaining in a new boiler/piping arrangement. I've cleaned problem systems with newer boilers this way to find that the boilers were producing wet steam since their installation. The process described above has solved so many mystery problems that were blamed on either the steam heating systems themselves or the new boilers.

-Terry

P.S. This is not an explicit endorsement of 8 way over other REPUTABLE water treatments. I understand Rhomar has an excellent product also. Rhomar is not available in my area.

TCR_2

Thanks everyone.

I'll get to work on your suggestions and report back on how I make out..... :-)

Steamhead (in transit)

Your new boiler

is acting like a scouring pad on the system. It's loosening all the dirt which is now comoing back to the boiler and causing this problem.

If you've followed Peerless's cleaning instructions and still have trouble, try this:

With the boiler water at about two-thirds up the glass, fire the boiler until the water starts to boil. Then stop the boiler and drain all the water out to a safe place where no one will get scalded. DO NOT REFILL THE BOILER FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR AFTER DOING THIS!!!!! If you do it might crack the cast-iron. The boiler must cool down before it can safely accept cold water.

What this does is get all the dirt into suspension in the hot water before draining.

You might also remove the main vents, hook up a water hose to the main vent tappings and flush the return out. I bet there's lots of dirt in there.

I avoid using chemicals in steam boilers unless there's no other way to get them clean. It can be difficult to get all the chemical out of the system when you're done.

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ttekushan_3

One more thing. The reason

mere skimming doesn't help you much at this stage is that the wet steam produced earlier on has carried impurities everywhere in the system. Which is ok, really, since a general cleaning of everything every hundred years or so isn't overkill! Skim and clean the boiler at its installation more throughly than you think reasonable. Problems after that usually call for surface blowdown, imho.

-Terry

ttekushan_3

Many of these and

> is acting like a scouring pad on the system. It's

> loosening all the dirt which is now comoing back

> to the boiler and causing this problem.

>

> If

> you've followed Peerless's cleaning instructions

> and still have trouble, try this:

>

> With the

> boiler water at about two-thirds up the glass,

> fire the boiler until the water starts to boil.

> Then stop the boiler and drain all the water out

> to a safe place where no one will get scalded. DO

> NOT REFILL THE BOILER FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR AFTER

> DOING THIS!!!!! If you do it might crack the

> cast-iron. The boiler must cool down before it

> can safely accept cold water.

>

> What this does

> is get all the dirt into suspension in the hot

> water before draining.

>

> You might also remove

> the main vents, hook up a water hose to the main

> vent tappings and flush the return out. I bet

> there's lots of dirt in there.

>

> I avoid using

> chemicals in steam boilers unless there's no

> other way to get them clean. It can be difficult

> to get all the chemical out of the system when

> you're done.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

ttekushan_3

Many of these and

similar chemicals really keep the system clean and protected if maintained in low concentrations thereon after... The product he's been using leaves no permanent residues if one chooses to flush it out completely. I've never seen a system dependent on it.

But your point brings to mind the issue of regional differences in water chemistry. Its not a question of water quality, but of the mineral content of it. In many regions the water has very low turbidity and as such benefit little if at all from permanent water treatments. I think this is why we sometimes see some regions with a great abundance of 100 year old steamers and others where the older ones are nonexistant. Or the use of vinegar to keep the pH from rising. Weird. In my part of the country, we've got hard water. Thats why I can do a decent business descaling boilers in addition to the other regular maintenance and tuning. Ask anyone around my area with industrial firetube boilers if water treatment is optional! pH testing's also a good idea. Reading some of those very very old books on steam boilers for locomotive engineers sheds some real light on the issue of regional water characteristics. Besides, I like the gold leaf gilded pages
-Terry

EBEBRATT-Ed

If the hartford loop connection is 8 1/2" bellow the bottom of the gage glass tapping it is to low.


ED

TCR_2

System running great !

Thanks everyone and here is what I have done so far.

Per Gerry's suggestion which also happend to be the easiest and therefore meets the KISS principle, I drained, filled to the top of the site glass, drained again and then filled the system with water (supplied by my town, not from a well).

Set the water level to about halfway up the site glass and turned on the boiler. The house sat all day in 40*F outside temps so it took about an hour to build up 1.5lbs of steam pressure. During this time the water level rose about 1/2" and slowly bounced a little but not a single bang and none of the gurgling noises.

As the steam pressure built up to 1.5 psi the water level dropped about 1/2" below the middle of the glass. Slow rythmic bounce up and down about 1/4" in each direction. Even heat at all the radiators. No bangging. No hammer. House toasty warm and wife very happy.

So obviously I'll stay with just plain water. How one cup of 8-Way mixed with 15 gallons of boiler water caused such a racket is a mystery to me. Maybe there was some other factor that I missed and the cause was not the chemicals but the system is runnning fine so I'll leave it this way.

I will look into correcting the other issues and do a repost of my findings. I'll also post my heat load calculations to verify the boiler sizing.

As a small thankyou for your help if any of you would like a "heating help" cap send me an email. My company does logo clothing so if Dan does not object I'll do a quick logo design and mail you a cap.

TR

Steamhead (in transit)

Glad we could help!

Dan has his own "Dead Men's Caps", but can you do a couple with All Steamed Up, Inc's logo?

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Tim Gardner

Wow! That's a great sketch! Wonderful perspective! Looks absolutely 3-D; jumps right off the page.

Christian Egli_2

Thanks Tim for the artistic perspective

In view of Gerry's simple rinse solution, these refinements seem over-the-top though. The simple solutions are always better.

At least there is much to be learned in Terry's descaling posts.

I'm happy for you, TCR, your wife and your radiators.

Steamhead (in transit)

Pressure relief valve

Minor point: Please re-install the pressure relief valve with the stem in the vertical position per Code and installation instructions on the valve.

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TCR_2

relief valve

This is on my list and will get done shortly. It is a "minor point" so long as it does not jam with crud and then it would be a big problem.

Thanks