Combustion analyzer...

The Wire Nut

TGO,

That already is in process.... and I have no intention of probing alien stacks until I am well trained...

Alex...

The Wire Nut

used?

I've been looking at the various on-line auction sites for Bacharach Combustion analyzers. I'm finding the following commonly offered:

Fyrite II
Fyrite Pro 100
PCA 25
The liquid CO2 and O2 testers.

Any thoughts on which would be best for someone just getting started, but insanely interested?

Some of the listings mentioned the need for new sensors and recalibration. Is this a big deal?

Thanks!

Alex

Mitch_6

Buy new

You want digital and you want it calibrated so if there is a problem (like getting sued) you have evidence that your equipment is as accurate as practical.

If you buy used it will most likely cost at least a couple of hundred bucks to send it out for testing and calibration.

I have a TSI 630 and people have been speeking highly of the Fyrite and Testo products.

Just my $0.02

Mitch S.

TGO_54

Hi Stonehouse

> I've been looking at the various on-line auction

> sites for Bacharach Combustion analyzers. I'm

> finding the following commonly offered:

>

> Fyrite

> II Fyrite Pro 100 PCA 25 The liquid CO2 and O2

> testers.

>

> Any thoughts on which would be best

> for someone just getting started, but insanely

> interested?

>

> Some of the listings mentioned

> the need for new sensors and recalibration. Is

> this a big deal?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Alex





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TGO_54

Hi Stonehouse

Before investing in the tool, invest in the training to use it properly and understand what the readings are telling you.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Timco

I bought a Fyrite Pro 125 for 1099.00 with printer from Johnstone supply. It's easy to use and understand the readings...but how to adjust and calibrate the appliance based on the numbers is the harder part. Bacharach is EXCELLENT about answering questions. I am totally interested in this and am learning daily.

T

Mike E_2

The Bacharach Fyrite Tech 60 measures O2, CO, temp, and calculates CO2, free CO, excess air, and efficiency. It also has the ability to communicate with a printer (available separately).

Many places sell the Fyrite Tech 60 for around $450. I've found some for $405

In order to know that the results for a used unit are correct, you would need recalibration for around $200. A Fyrite Tech 60 went for $300 on ebay last week. Add calabration/possible replacement sensors, and you've spent alot more than a brand new unit.

Check out www.bacharach-inc.com

Michael

Jim Davis

The Fyrite 100 is CO only. PCA is high maintenance. Don't waste money on bottles. Like using a Polaroid camera to do a movie. Before you invest, please learn how to use an analyzer. People with them that don't know how to use them can really mess up equipment. TSI,Bacharach & Testo are the best. If you do oil, only the first two.

Darin Cook_2

Obi-Wan Davis

Where is the super-secret oil combustion info you said you were working on? We would like to get our hands on it.



Darin

The Wire Nut

Lesson learned...

Thanks for all the input... After thinking about it, I remembered my ex-business partner's motto on used cars; "Why would you want to buy someone else's headache".

It doesn't make sense to buy a used one despite that I am a "student" at this point. If there are problems and calibration issues, it will only serve to screw me up and/or slow me down...

The Tech 60 falls into the budget, and I certainly won't be tempted to overbid for something just to make it "mine!"...

I'll check a couple of the supply houses and let you know what I find...

Thanks again,

Alex

Oh, and the super secret to oil combustion info is; never let it burn, and it always tastes better in the extra-virgin olive type. Especially if you add garlic first....

The Wire Nut

Follow up...

Just thought I would let you know what I ended up buying. Based on your input I did a bit of research on the internet and looked at various Bacharach dealers and their products.

I found a company called Carl's Calibration (www.carlscalibration.com) [Note: I have no connection to them, other than they gave me great service!] that sells a Fyrite Tech 60 Starter Kit. It contains the Tech 60, which now supports the infrared printer, a TrueSpot smoke tester, and a DraftRite gauge. All for a very good price. They were out of the DraftRite's so he sent me one of his Dwyers as a loaner. Not bad for a cold call!

For those afeared of my lack of training, I can tell you that I'm learning as fast as I can...

Thanks for all the input!

Alex...

Rudy

Hi Alex

Been on the road so missed your thread until now. Don't hesitate to give me a call if you have any questions about your instrument.
I'd look forward to talking with you.
We've also got alot of basic application info at www.bacharach-training.com , including an 'On-line' operator's manual for that instrument.
I can help you get the basics down, then plan on hooking up with the esteemed Mr. Davis!!
My cell number is 412-576-1350

Ich Wundermich

starter analyzer for the insanely interested

consider the UEI C100ACOPB X for their outstanding flat rate recalibration service. One step up, and a better choice in my opinion is the KM900CO/P by Kane. Same service considerations.
Calibration is a standard requirement withthese sensitive pieces of equipment and assure continued reliability.
UEI exchange sensors, pumps, batteries every two years as a matter of convenience to you. In the alternate years all functions are certified and only repairs are made. Again, you know beforehand what it is going to cost.
Contact information:kirstyu@ueitest.com

mark smith

my c100 has had 4 repairs in a year ...

Timco

Rudy...

On a concentric vent boiler, is there any advantage to starting the tester (pro 125) outside to have the unit base the ambient temp & efficiency on the actual combustion air temp? Also, if the tester says 15ppm CO, that is the reading of all CO detected? COAF is calculated by subtracting the CO2 and the O2? Are these numbers (%s) figured against just what the tester draws in...excluding nitrogen?

Thanks,

Tim

Timco

bonus question

Rudy...

If there is 370-380ppm ambient CO2, why will the pro not find that...just reads 0% CO2.

Tim

Rudy

Hi Tim

It really doesn't make a huge difference. Yes, you will probably get a more accurate 'SSE' reading (it takes a 40 degree difference in the net stack temp to make a 1% difference in the SSE reading).

If I understand your question, yes, 15 ppm CO is the total reading.

The COAF reading simply subtracts the excess O2 from the sample, would be as if you were burning with a '0' O2 reading - its what all the standards are based on.

The analogy I give is if I had two cups of coffee with exactly the same amount of coffee in each.

One of which I pour a bunch of cream into.

I still have the same number of coffee molecules in each, its just that one of the cups I've diluted down with cream.

The COAF reading is just like "mathmatically" taking the cream out of the coffee.

Does that make any sense?

Timco

Very clear. I figured out the CO2 question....370ppm CO2 ambient is less than 1%.

BTW...Great text book...on my second read thru!

Thanks,

Tim

Rudy

Hi again

My answers are getting mixed up with your questions!!!

With regards to the CO2 question...

The calculated readings on the analyzer are based on the O2 reading.

CO2 and excess air are mathmatically calculated based on the O2 reading. If the O2 reading is in the accepted range, the CO2 and EA readings have to be within that acceptable range, just by definition.

You can't measure ambient CO2 readings with these instruments because the O2 sensor is not capable of measuring those levels. It's late, don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly 1% equals 10,000 ppm (or something like that).

Plus, when these instruments power up the O2 sensor, they do an 'automatic' power up of the sensor. Irregardless of the actual O2 content of the 'sample' being pulled through during the 60 second warm up period, the O2 sensor will read 20.9 (or there abouts).

Again, it's late, I was poisoned for about 5 hours at a supply house last night - does this make any sense?!?!

Rudy

I differ with your opinion, Ich

Personally, I would recommend contractors service and calibrate their own instruments.

For a couple of hundred bucks you can purchase the cal gas and fittings to calibrate a basic analyzer, probably less money if you get the components locally.

Ya need a bottle of 100ppm CO cal gas for the CO sensor and a bottle of 100% nitrogen to do the O2 sensor. Your local welding shop can probably supply this if you want to put it together yourself.

Let's see what we have here:

-a circuit board

-a pump

-two sensors

-and a couple of batteries.

I've never seen one of our circuit boards go bad (although I'm sure it occasionally happens) - that pretty much narrows it down...

I put together a 4WC" monometer and use my meat injector (in between batches of smoked ribs) to calibrate my pressure sensor....

I use a pot of boiling water and an ice cold beer to calibrate the thermocouple - for $80 bucks you can get an omega t-couple simulator to do the same thing (or if ya don't have any ice cold beer handy!!)....

This ain't rocket science...
Just about any modern furnace/boiler is much more difficult to work on....

Timco

Perfectly clear. It's all becomming soo very clear...Thanks for the input...

Tim

The Wire Nut

So much to learn, so little time...

Rudy,

Thanks so much for the offers of help and the link to the training. Can I call you this weekend when I'll be in my house with the analyzer and my burner?

There is so much to learn and I'm trying to soak this all in...

Thanks again,

Alex

The Wire Nut

Oh...

I forgot to mention that I am going to try and take one of Alan Mercurio's classes next month. After that I may be worthy of one of Mr. Davis' classes...

I'll yet get myself into this industry!

Alex

Rudy

Hi Alex

You have the number, feel free to call anytime. There's alot going on this weekend, if I don't pick up I'm probably either playing with fire in a basement or waiting for my daughter to try (again) to pass her driver's test - Oh boy!!

Mitch_6

While I would like a testing

agent to spot check that my tester is reading properly (I have not been informed of one yet)I still want the annual inspection with certification by an independent source for documentation of proper maintenance in case of a legal incident.

$200.00 to $350.00 once a year is cheap insurance and you can add it to the cost of doing the testing.

Mitch S.

Rudy

Mitch

I certainly don't disagree with you.

It's just that I got my first electronic in 1987 and with some help from some guy, let's see, I think his last name was Davis - Joe or Jim - something like that, anyway, I learned how to completely maintain that instrument. Never once sent it in for service.

Plus folks have been using the shaker bottles for almost 100 years and maintaining it themselves.

I'm sure it will happen sometime as this is a very sue happy society - but I haven't heard of one single incident yet.

The engineer that designed the instrument that Alex picked up specifically made it so the end user could calibrate it and take care of minor service issues when necessary.

Like Jim mentioned, other instruments like the PCA are a little more difficult for the average Joe to calibrate and maintain.

Additionally, at least with our instruments, the cal and sensor replacement procedures are in the operator's manual and on the websites, we also make available the calibration kits - if there was a substantial liability concern with that the procedures would not be readily available.

And if you don't want to bother with the service/calibration issues I tell folks that it will only take around $125 or so a year to maintain a basic analyzer.

Depends on personal preference. I know how to change the oil in my personal 'fleet' of vehicles, yet I opt to take it to my mechanic.

My main reason for doing so is convenience but more importantly, he keeps his eyes and ears open for other potential problems that I am not trained nor experienced to be aware of. That is worth it to me.

I just want our customers to know there are other options.