Panel Rads OR Baseboards ?

R. Kalia_8

> and he will also add <BR>
> outdoor reset should i tel him to add trv's<BR>

Reset and TRVs are two different things. Reset lowers the water temperature until it is just enough to heat the house, resulting in long but gentle heating cycles. But if one room gets hotter than another, this will happen with or without reset. TRVs let each room have its own thermostat, eliminating the problem.

If your contractor is good, as he seems to be, and he puts in just the right size panel rad in each room, then all the rooms will be equally heated and you won't need TRVs. Getting it exactly right is not so easy, though, plus if you like the living room warm and the bedroom cold, you won't get that kind of control easily without a TRV.

Dave_4

Hello i was searching the web and my contractor is trying is damnest to sell me panel rads right now my home has baseboards and it works good.

but he told my wife that because she works from home and is home all day that panel rads would be more comfortable.

i just don't understand how much more comfortable can they be over baseboard.

also wont panel rads consume more water then baseboard and the boiler would have to run longer to heat more water

so wont baseboard run the boiler less because of much less water?

i don't mind spending the extra few grand if it will save oil and be more comfortable.

he said that in one room he will leave the baseboard because of all the furniture but all bedrooms and bath and dining room will be panel if i want.

i am asking here because i don't want my contractor to think i am doubting him so if you guys give me the thumbs up ill go for it we are getting a blue buderus and he said i will safe money because of the outdoor thing he will put on

any suggestions would be helpful thank you

John

Ray M

Hands down panel rads.

Ray M

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Paul Pollets

Panel Rads

Panel radiators are usually installed with thermostatic radiator valves TRV's), for precise, individual radiator setpoints. They work best when the zone circulator pump is running on "constant circulation" and the boiler has an "outdoor reset control" to maximize efficiency. Changing the baseboard to WPRads may not save huge amounts of energy unless all of the above are included. We prefer the WPR's over baseboard because they look better and come in many sizes to fit the location. The TRV is the "cat's meow". TRV's can be installed to CFT baseboard, depending upon how the zone was originally piped.

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J. Cricket

> also wont panel rads consume more

> water then baseboard and the boiler would have to

> run longer to heat more water

>

> so wont

> baseboard run the boiler less because of much

> less water?


This is nonsense. The water is heated and then it cools, transferring its heat to the house. More water does not mean more energy consumption.

It does mean that the panel radiator will stay warm for a longer time after the boiler goes off, resulting in more even heat.

Baseboards were popular years ago, when people didn't realize or weren't told that these need very hot water to properly heat the house. With enough panel rads you can use lower water temperatures, which gives you a more comfortable feeling, the heat has less of that "bang bang" quality where either the heat is on full blast or it is off and you can always tell which.

grindog

panel rads

with panel rads you get alot more comfortable heat and more piping options with your boiler.
You can do constant circulation with thermostatic radiator valves and that will allow you to set the temperature on every individual radiator. Panel rads will stay warmer for longer than baseboard also. If you use outdoor reset with your boiler and the panel rads you will definitely see a drop in your fuel consumption and more comfortable heat in all the rooms in your house.

Dave_4

thank you guys but will the panel rads make the boiler run longer because the panel rads take more water?

also he did say that he wants my system to run all the time he said that i wont need my thermostat for heating he is putting in a buderus thermostat.

i lived with baseboard all my life so i never had panel. but if you all say it's that much better i will call him in the morning and give him the OK.

jerry scharf_3

John

There are several concepts that need to be looked at.

First is the relationship between heating and human comfort. There are three types of heat transfer: conductive, convective and radiant. It's hard for most people to wrap their heads around radiant heating, but it's hust like the sun's warmth. It turns out that the human body is more sensative to radiant heat than air temperature. This means the human will be comfortable with lower air temperatures when there is a significant radiant component to the heat output. Radiant heat tends to change slower than baseboard heat because it is stored in all the walls, ceilings, etc. and those can store more heat than air. Rapid temperature changes and wide temperature swings are percieved by humans as less comfortable.

Second is how the two types of emitters work. Baseboard are purely convective, they suck in cold air, heat it and send it out into the room. They have the fastest response. panel radiators have a component of convective and a component of radiant output. THe ratio is controlled by the water temperature. As the temperature goes up, the relative amount of convective increases.

So the ideal comfort situation is a relatively cool radiant panel running constantly at just the right rate to heat the room. There are devices called Thermostatic Radiator valves (TRVs) that adjust the flow based on the current room temperature. The popular ones are non-electric and come either self contained or remote sensors. The self contained are are great, but don't work in some rooms. This is the predominant form of heating in Europe.

The final part is how the emitters interact with the controls and boiler. The simplest form is an on off thermostat that turns the boiler on and off at maximum water temperature based on room temperature. The next step is to add "outdoor reset". Outdoor reset varies the temperature of the water supplied to the emitters based on the outside air temperature. The colder the day, the hotter the water. This makes the system run longer, which increases comfort, makes the system quieter and saves fuel (the folks at tekmar have done studies that show a 15-20% savings.) With the TRVs and constant circulation, outdoor reset now realy comes into it's own and we now have the panel rads working close to optimal. As you increase the size of the panel rads, the water temp needed drops more and comfort is furtehr increased.

Finally we have the boiler. It just happens that the most efficeinct boilers (modualting/condensing gas boilers) reach their highest efficeincy at the lowest return temperature. The modulation takes away the loss of efficeincy of starting and stopping the boiler, so you get even better fuel efficiency.

So the ideal system has large panel radiators with TRVs and constant circulation. The system uses outdoor reset to vary the supply temperature based of the outside air temp, and run a well sized modulating/condensing boiler to supply the heat.

So that's why the contractor is pushing the panel rads, and he is absolutely correct. You need to decide how much of the ideal system you want to do. Also note that this can be a phased approach, where you do the panel rads now, then add other parts later. It's not as cheap as getting it all done at once, but it may make more sense for the cash flow. Then again, you can usually cover all this if/when you pull a new mortgage for the place.

jerry

Rodney Summers

Panel rads

should be looked at for comfort. Don't expect a BIG energy savings. Outdoor reset can be used with BB also. BB doesn't have to be at 180° to heat your home. Just get more of it and you can run 140° water also.

Dave_4

jerry and everyone thanks for all your response i will tell him tomorrow to add the panel rads to the job

he also never said he was going to put trv but said he was going to put in a thermostat that would balance the whole house i think he said it's a indoor reset.

and he will also add outdoor reset should i tel him to add trv's

so my idea of more water compared to baseboard. dose not mean you use more oil.

R. Kalia_8

> thank you guys but will the panel rads make the

> boiler run longer because the panel rads take

> more water?


It is desirable for your boiler to run longer, but at a lower "speed", just as a car is more efficient when driving under 55mph compared to its full speed.

But the amount of water is not important, as already stated in another post below. If there is more water, the boiler may run longer to heat up the water, but then it will "rest" longer between cycles while all that water in the rads continues to heat the house. Your gas bill will be the same.

> also he did say that he wants my

> system to run all the time


Sounds like he knows his stuff. I would add only that panel rads are a no-brainer for new construction, but if you already have bb and it is running OK, then you are paying a lot to pull it out and put in panel rads. If you have the money and are willing to pay for comfort, fine. Just don't expect that this change will save you money on gas bills; the new boiler will save you money, but the panel rads will only increase comfort.

Weezbo

The panel rads have trv's ,

baseboard on a mono flow could have same , the both systems could be run off an injection system thereby reducing the temps of the baseboard and making it more comfortable while you are about it.

panel rads behave well even with way lower temps.

jerry scharf_3

I would disagree with the \"size it right\" method

As controls person, that doesn't really work for me. How do you size right when the number of people in the room changes, wind driven infiltration cools off the rooms on one side of the house. Then there is the case where passive solar heat cooks some rooms while others are cold, only to change as the sun sweeps across the sky. Ask my neighbor a block away who has this happen every sunny day of the winter. Concrete radiant floors with a single zone that faces east and west.

TRVs handle these kinds of situations without any though. It also allows you to run slightly larger panels, which reduce water temps and help efficeincy and comfort...

Indoor reset is a similar idea to outdoor reset, but may not be compatible with a TRV controlled system.

If your contractor has any questions, send him here. We'll comfuse the **** out of him (just kidding.)

best of luck,
jerry

Ted_9

panels

I install more panel rads the baseboard and my customers love them. So doesnt my family.

There is no comparison in comfort. Panels win hands down.

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Darin Cook_2

Jerry

That was an excellent reply. Very well said. There can be a energy savings with panel rads if you are taking the unoccupied rooms and turning the trv's down ( less btu input to room) . That is the beauty of trv's is that every room becomes a individual zone. Fintube baseboard is nothing more than a gravity warm air system. Alot more comfortable than a forced air system because of the gentle air movement. But hands down the panel rads with the radiant output will provide the greatest comfort.


Darin

Uni R

Baseboards

Nobody told me that I need very hot water with baseboards to heat my house properly. They only get up to about 135 on very cold days. Should I open some windows so that they can work better? ;-)