basket of fruit from installers

bob young

for an example , a four section peerless for steam has a graduated imput range depending on which of three nozzles are installed in the burner. on syteam connected radiation determines the size boiler & heat loss for hot water heat.

steve_114

Basket of Fruit from Installers

I would like to get a new oil fired boiler with an indirect hot water heater for baseboard heat, but there is not a technician out there who has quoted me who is capable of answering a direct question. I need to know if I need a 4 section as opposed to a 5 section boiler. I'm being given different quotes and trying to compare apples to apples and I have a basket of fruit. When I ask each different installer I'm told I need it because that is what I need. At this point, all I need is the knowledge to determine what I actually need so that I could control my purchase and not feel like I'm bent over in prison.

Tony_23

Sections

The number of sections isn't as important as the BTU rating, or the EDR rating if steam. Different mfgs have different sizes (btu/section).

Pay someone to do a heatloss calc and then you'll know what you need.

Mark Hunt

Ben Dover


Which of the contractors has provided you with a heat loss?

None?

It's YOUR money, YOU'RE the boss, demand a heat loss report.

If they can't do that, find someone that can.

Mark H

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Tony_23

Yes

But that's not what he asked

You know as well as I do, that a 4 section with the largest listed nozzle is usually minutely close to a 5 section with the smallest listed nozzle.

He simply asked about sections as a size and I pointed out that wasn't all there is to it, right ?

bob young

no tickee, no shirtee

before you get a heat loss report ,i get a check. those free estimate days with a couple hours of free specs are over. too many clown contractors worked off our knowlege to undercut our legitimite prices. that is over.

Maine Ken

I DO NOT give specifics as to boiler size etc when I am doing proposals. I specify ...a properly sized XYZ boiler... Been burned way too many times by unlicensed "buddies" and other low bid hacks who tell the HO "I will install his [my] designed system for x amount less than he [I] will". They use my specs and my price to cut my throat. Never again. Price shop all you want. If you want my design you have to pay.

Maine Ken

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will smith_4

Wait a sec Mark-

Hey didn't say he paid anyone for a heat calc. Probably hasn't paid anyone for anything other than a "free estimate". Which seems to be what he's gotten so far. You get what you pay for-don't complain about shots in the dark if you won't sport the batteries for the flashlight.

Mark Hunt

Never said


"free" did I???

I am with you Bob, no free lunch!

Let the other guys do all the "free" estimates they want. I'll give you a guaranteed proposal with a heat loss to back it up. Yes....it's going to cost you but it's guaranteed.

Let the "free guy" put that in writing!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

WHOA!!


What is it, "jump on Mark night" or something?????

Yah, he never said he paid anyone for anything other than WHAT THEY ALL ADVERTISE ON THEIR TRUCKS, CARDS AND WEBSITES!! FREE ESTIMATES!!! Is that my fault????

I'll bet you $100 that NONE of the companies he spoke to even know what a heat loss is. They have NEVER done one MUCH LESS OFFER ONE AT ADDITIONAL CHARGE!

So get off me!

I told him to find a company that DOES DO heat loss calcs!

If he has to pay for it, it would be money well spent.

So your point is??

Mark H

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will smith_4

Double whoa!

Mark- I've found your posts on the Wall (today and at other times) to be right to the point and meaningful.It's easy to tell you love your trade and have many points about it you want to share. At any rate, WE'RE NOT DEAF. STOP SHOUTING AT US! LOL! We (I) may take exception at a post, but not at the Post-er!
We're all on the same page. Not always on the same line.

Mark Hunt

hey


You started it.

Now, answer my questions. What did I say that required your initial response? Show me where I said "free".

You go back and re-read my post and then come back with your commentary. What did I say??

I'll wait.

Mark H

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bob young

free not

the man is 100 % correct. you never said free ,Mark. i think every one including me jumped the gun on that one !! i repeat " you never said free ." i charge by the word !! lol bob

Weezbo

Thanks *~/:) Bob .

i never heard of that Buh sounds like a smashing idea:)

finding someone to do the work isnt the same thing as finding someone that Does Work

That just paid for half the job right there Gawd i'm tired.

Mark Hunt

I, like you


work for a living. I have a small company that does PHVAC installs. I DO NOT DO FREE HEAT LOSS CALCS and anyone that does is trying to go out of business.

I challenge anyone to find the word "free" on my website.

No free lunch

I want EVERY contractor to make what they are worth. In most cases, that is substantially more than what they charge.

Mark H

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will smith_4

Mark, you're right.

You certainly didn't insinuate a load calc should be free. YOU never have, as I can remember. It was the way this post was going that lead to the declarations that they shouldn't be considered to be so. And no, I don't think they should be free. But let's get something out in the open. There is no one National code that regulates HVAC. No ONE manual to rely upon to check whether or not a system is installed properly, sized properly. We need to wake and realize that we are largely regulated by the American Realtors Association; they are the ones that lobby against efforts to require load calcs of homes being sold vs. what is actually installed; be it forced air or hydronic.

Mark Hunt

Fair enough


Look Will, I am on your side and the side of every contractor that "does it right".

The rest can close shop as far as I am concerned.

Glad you responded the way you did! You are looking out for the industry!

Peace Will Smith! We are on the same side! Yes???

Mark H

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will smith_4

Darn Skippy, Mark-

I believe in what I do-and I know you do too. We wouldn't do it if we didn't. This is our chosen profession. We wake up in the morning staring at the clock, waiting to get at it. I love what I do. I picked it!

Mark Hunt

All is well then!


I wouldn't quit this if I hit for 10mil on the lottery!

We'll meet someday Will.

Til then!

Mark H

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will smith_4

Till Then-

I like that. An open hand. Back at 'cha. Can't wait!

Mark Hunt

BTW


You're buying!

Mark H



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bob young

with all the hoopla we never heard a peep from the original poster homeowner steve. wonder what he thinks about all of this ? we might of scared him off. but absolutely not intentionaly

Unknown

There are variables Steve

First of all I would ask the person quoting you what he based his boiler sizing on. As many have stated, a replacement hot water boiler needs to be sized by your buildings current heat loss. Second, if an Indirect Heater is being used, is he adding additional btu's to the boiler size so that you can operate the Indirect and heat simultaneously or is he using a priority control to shut down the heating zones for 15-20 minutes while the Indirect is operating and using a smaller output boiler. Which one is better, that is tough to say but I'll guarantee you the smaller boiler with priority will burn less fuel.

As another stated, there really is no difference between the output of a 3 section boiler with normal firing and a 4 section boiler with a reduced firing rate. For example, the difference in outputs between our V83 boiler with normal firing rate and a V84 with reduced firing rate is only 3,000 btuh.

What is the difference? The V84 will cost you a couple of hundred dollars more but will operate with the same efficiency when firing at the reduced firing rate. What is the advantage? If you choose to add on to the house or building you will have the ablity to up-fire it to meet the need. Same goes for the indirect. If your hot water needs increase do to another bath being added in the basement or a whirlpool being added, you will once again have the ability to up-fire. With the smaller boiler you are locked into that maximum firing rate.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Mark Hunt

It happens


sometimes.

Most of the time they just go underground with new info. This time, he got scared. We started talkin' about charging.

Guaranteed to put most posters down.

Mark H

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Kevin O. Pulver

I'm with you Mark

You were right all along. BUT about the $10 mill thing...
I've heard that before. I gotta think the phone number might disappear off the side of your truck if you hit it that big! Maybe you'd be some sorta lone ranger, occasionally showing up for fun and fixing systems for destitute orphans and widows, but I gotta think it would affect your work habits a bit during the rest of the time.
;-) Kevin

Supply House Rick

Once again...

When I see questions like these I ask some of our customers. These answers come from respected contractors in our area who on average 40+ boilers a year.

Question-Do you perform a Heat Loss?

1. If it's a 4-section we replace it with a 5-section
2. I replace it with the size that's in there
3. I measure the outside of the house and figure 45 btus per
per square foot
4. I been doin' this so long I
can tell when I get in the driveway
5. 1200 sqft modular, I suggested a 3-section, my favorite
answer EVER... Rick, what you need to know about me, is
I never put in a 3-section!
Classic answers don't you think, how many of you out there
think like this?

Rick

soot_seeker_2

Glenn,how about the greater standby loss with a larger boiler?

EBEBRATT-Ed

You tell like it is Ken!